A few sentences with で

raikado · 25 Apr 2015

Hello,

The usage of で in the following sentences seems a bit weird to me and I would like to know if I understand them right. The sentences are all from Erin's challenge.

EDIT: After writing this post, I think in the first two sentences it is also this で

５動作・作用の行われる状態を表す。「みんな―研究する」「笑顔―あいさつする」

. But I will still leave those unedited, just in case.

演歌の歌い方の一つで、一つの音の中で音の高さを上下にゆらす方法を、何と言いますか？
Here, is the first で just the te form of だ? In other words, で means "and", and just links two sentences. So 演歌の歌い方の一つで、一つの音の中で音の高さを上下にゆらす is a sentence that modifies 方法.

長崎の名物で、ごはんの上にスパゲッティとトンカツをのせ、デミグラスソースをかけた料理を、何と言いますか？
Here, too, で is the te form of だ. So 長崎の名物で、ごはんの上にスパゲティをのせる料理 would mean "a dish that is a Nagasaki specialty and that is made by putting spaghetti on top of rice".

１９８８年に映画「ラストエンペラー」で、日本人ではじめてアカデミー賞作曲賞を受賞した音楽家は誰ですか？
a) About the first で, does it show the method by which the award is won? 映画「ラストエンペラー」で賞を受賞した音楽家 = "the composer who won the award with/using the [Last emperor] movie"
b) About the second で, is it this one?

５動作・作用の行われる状態を表す。「みんな―研究する」「笑顔―あいさつする」

I know 日本人ではじめてアカデミー賞作曲賞を受賞した音楽家 means "The first japanese composer who won the アカデミー賞作曲賞 award".

Toritoribe · 25 Apr 2015

で indicates 範囲 such like "in" or "among" in 長崎の名物で and 日本人で.
Unlike 演歌の歌い方で, which is 範囲 as same as the above, で is the -te form of copula in 演歌の歌い方の一つで, as in your initial interpretation.
As for 映画「ラストエンペラー」で, で would be 原因・根拠. The interpretation 道具・手段 might be also possible, though.

raikado · 26 Apr 2015

So the で in the first sentence is grammatically different from the other two.
Which definition from the dictionary describes the 範囲 meaning? "４期限・限度・基準を表す。「一日―仕上げる」「五つ―二〇〇円」" seems to be the only one that mentions "extent", but I don't know, is it this one?

Toritoribe said:
As for 映画「ラストエンペラー」で, で would be 原因・根拠. The interpretation 道具・手段 might be also possible, though.

Oh, I forgot about the 原因 meaning. Still, it's good that I got close to it. I was afraid で would indicate something like "location" there.

Toritoribe · 26 Apr 2015

There is no strict/official classification about the functions of case particles. I don't think it's useful to choose a function just in a dictionary. FYI, here are definitions of で in some grammar textbooks.

出来事・動作の場所
道具・手段
材料
原因
範囲
限度
100人で募集を打ち切る。
基準
3枚で500円なら買います。
動作の主体

動作・出来事の行われる具体的・抽象的な場所
彼の提案は三つの点で間違っている。
彼の計画ではこの問題は扱われていない。
手段・道具
原因
材料
範囲・限度
30人で締め切る。
三つでやめる。
3時間で読み終わる。
様態
裸足で歩く。
大声で叫ぶ。
一人で暮らす。
自分でやる。
動作主

場所
図書館で勉強する
材料
紙で人形を作る
手段・道具
パソコンで書類を作る
原因・理由
大雪で電車が止まる
範囲
１日で仕事を終える
まとまり
一人で夕食を食べる
内容
進学のことで先生に相談する

As you can see, 一人で is classified as 様態 in the second book, whereas it's まとまり in the third book. Furthermore, this で is treated as 補足語(close to adjectival phrase), not 補語 "complement", in the first book.

raikado · 26 Apr 2015

Then, would it be better to think of で as showing the circumstances in which the action is done(５動作・作用の行われる状態を表す。)? This one seems to contain all the other meanings. There are some exceptions, like 100人で募集を打ち切る where this interpretation might be a little off, but it's still close enough and seems to work.

On another note, I am still a little hesitant when reading sentences with で as the -te form of the copula. Maybe it's because I am not used to this kind of で. For instance, today I've encountered this next sentence.
そばをゆでたお湯で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。何と言います？
Here, で is the -te form, right? ("It is the water in which you boiled noodles and at the end you mix it into the soup and drink it. How is it called?")

Toritoribe · 27 Apr 2015

raikado said:
Then, would it be better to think of で as showing the circumstances in which the action is done(５動作・作用の行われる状態を表す。)? This one seems to contain all the other meanings. There are some exceptions, like 100人で募集を打ち切る where this interpretation might be a little off, but it's still close enough and seems to work.

名物 can never be treated as 状態.
I believe あることが成り立つ範囲 is the most suitable explanation about this function of で, and can't find any reasonable reason to pick up a definition only from 大辞泉, as I wrote.

raikado said:
On another note, I am still a little hesitant when reading sentences with で as the -te form of the copula. Maybe it's because I am not used to this kind of で. For instance, today I've encountered this next sentence.
そばをゆでたお湯で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。何と言います？
Here, で is the -te form, right? ("It is the water in which you boiled noodles and at the end you mix it into the soup and drink it. How is it called?")

Yes. そば湯はそばをゆでたお湯で、最後につゆにまぜて飲みます。 more clearly shows the function of this で, right?

raikado · 27 Apr 2015

Ahh, sorry, I see now how ambiguous my phrasing was. I was talking about all the meanings of で, not a specific one. I was trying to say: "What is a good definition of で that contains all these separate categories (出来事・動作の場所, 道具・手段, 材料, 原因, etc.). And I suggested ５動作・作用の行われる状態を表す(I am not limiting myself to 大辞泉, it just seemed to be the best option) , but as you pointed out it doesn't really work for all.

I need this because I often encounter で, don't know if I should take it as "it indicates place", "it indicates cause", etc....and then after I read the whole sentence I have to read it again in order to understand it, because I didn't know what で was or I interpreted it the wrong way. Maybe a better way to ask this would be "What do you think of で when you encounter it and it's not immediately obvious what it is?". For example the first で in this sentence:
１９８８年に映画「ラストエンペラー」で、日本人ではじめてアカデミー賞作曲賞を受賞した音楽家は誰ですか？
I don't think it's obvious that it is 原因, or even 道具 when you first read it. I initially thought it was 動作の場所, but when I reached the end of sentence it didn't make sense so I had to read it again.

I know experience plays a huge role with this kind of things, but I also think I might be approaching で the wrong way.

Toritoribe said:
Yes. そば湯はそばをゆでたお湯で、最後につゆにまぜて飲みます。 more clearly shows the function of this で, right?

Yes, that's how I also thought about it. Thank you!

raikado · 28 Apr 2015

Maybe it's because of this particular lesson or maybe I've never payed to much attention to で before. Can you help me with the second で in this sentence as well?

東京で有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く者を、何と言いますか？
Is it the -te form of the copula here?
And if it were 東京の有名な料理で would it be 範囲, or would it still remain the -te form of the copula? I feel like it changes to 範囲.

raikado · 28 Apr 2015

EDIT: I made a typo. It's not 者 but もの(物).

Toritoribe · 28 Apr 2015

raikado said:
Maybe a better way to ask this would be "What do you think of で when you encounter it and it's not immediately obvious what it is?". For example the first で in this sentence:
１９８８年に映画「ラストエンペラー」で、日本人ではじめてアカデミー賞作曲賞を受賞した音楽家は誰ですか？
I don't think it's obvious that it is 原因, or even 道具 when you first read it.

I believe I can get the meaning immediately when I see the verb (e.g. 受賞した) that is associated with で.

raikado said:
東京で有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く者を、何と言いますか？
Is it the -te form of the copula here?
And if it were 東京の有名な料理で would it be 範囲, or would it still remain the -te form of the copula? I feel like it changes to 範囲.

Both are 範囲. See the difference between them.

そば湯はそばをゆでたお湯で、最後につゆにまぜて飲みます。
そばをゆでたお湯: a complete explanation about そば湯; そばをゆでたお湯 is only そば湯.
最後につゆにまぜて飲みます: a use of そば湯

もんじゃ焼きは、東京で/の有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く物です。
東京で/の有名な料理: an explanation about the characteristic of もんじゃ焼き; 東京で/の有名な料理 is not only もんじゃ焼き.
東京で/の有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く物: a complete explanation about もんじゃ焼き

In your examples, when it refers to 範囲, で can be replaced with の中で or のうち, whereas when で is the -te form of copula, it's not.

○演歌の歌い方の中で、一つの音の中で音の高さを上下にゆらす方法を、何と言いますか？
○長崎の名物の中で、ごはんの上にスパゲッティとトンカツをのせ、デミグラスソースをかけた料理を、何と言いますか？
○東京で/の有名な料理の中で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く物を、何と言いますか？

×演歌の歌い方の一つの中で、一つの音の中で音の高さを上下にゆらす方法を、何と言いますか？
×そばをゆでたお湯の中で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。何と言います？

raikado · 29 Apr 2015

Toritoribe said:
I believe I can get the meaning immediately when I see the verb (e.g. 受賞した) that is associated with で.

Ok, then I guess the problem is my lack of experience. Hopefully it will fix itself with time.

Thanks, I understand now. Also, the reason why I thought で was the -te form in 東京で有名な料理で is because instead of thinking of 東京で有名な as a sentence modifying 料理, I thought that only 有名な modified 料理 and 東京で was just indicating the place where 有名な伊料理 was. Basically, I mistook that last で, for があって, which irritates me since this is basic level. Thank you very much for explaining it in detail! It's all very clear now.

raikado · 18 Oct 2015

Hello,

I have some more sentences with で. Can you check and correct them, please? I know there are a lot, but hopefully most of them are correct and just need a confirmation.

1) Q: 皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名な橋は、何と言いますか？ Answer:二重橋
Is で the -te form here?

2) Q: 六本木にあるビルで、いろいろな店やレストラン、会社、５４階建てのタワーなどがあります。何と言いますか？
Answer: 六本木ヒルズ
Is 六本木にあるビルで equivalent to 六本木にあるビルの中で? The question and the answer seem weird to me: "Among the buildings in Roppongi, there are various shops, restaurants, companies, 54-story towers, etc. What is it called?". What is called what? I am not able to understand what it is asking of me without looking at the choices/answer first. Is it just me?

3) 北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは、どこですか？
It seems there is only one 世界遺産 in 北海道, so is this the -te form?

4)日本に昔からある薬で、せきが出るときに飲むのは、次のうちどれですか？
で = の中で

5) ８月にとく島で行われる踊りで、グループで踊りながら街を歩きます。何という踊りですか?
～の中で doesn't seem to make much sense here (If I first look at 6, then back at this sentence, ～の中で starts to make sense). The -te form also seems odd, since I doubt it is the only dance performed in August there. So is で simply indicating the place/situation of グループで踊りながら街を歩きます? (動作・出来事の行われる具体的・抽象的な場所)

6) 昔から伝わる子どもの遊びで、歌にあわせて２人で向かい合って手をたたきながらジャンケンします。何と言いますか？
If I take into account what I said at 5), ～の中で wouldn't make sense here, but if I don't think about the logic too much, ～の中で actually seems to fit in this sentence...

7) 江戸時代の将軍の妻や子が暮らす場所で、将軍以外の男性が入ることが禁止されていた場所を、何と呼びますか？
Neither -te form nor ～の中で seem to fit. I think で is used in a similar fashion to this one, setting the place/scene: 普通の家で、人が食べるところは何と言いますか？(i created this sentence, so I am not 100% sure で can be used like this though)

8) 京都の代表的な繁華街で、高級な料亭がたくさんあるところは何と言いますか？
I think this one is similar to the example I provided at 7.

9) Q:災害についてのことばで、「天災（災害）は、＜何＞やって来る」？ A:忘れたころに
Again, neither the -te form nor the ～の中で. I think I understand it, but I don't know how to explain the meaning too well. Am I right that is neither of those two, though?

Toritoribe · 18 Oct 2015

I think the problem is you quoted your examples from quiz, which is not an ordinary sentence structure. See the following examples. Can you see the difference between the first and second sentence in each example?

二重橋は皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。
皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。

六本木ヒルズは六本木にあるビルで、（その中には）いろいろな店やレストラン、会社、５４階建てのタワーなどがあります。
六本木にあるビルで、いろいろな店やレストラン、会社、５４階建てのタワーなどがあるのは六本木ヒルズです。
（ビル is actually plural ビル群 here.)

知床半島は北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名です。
北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です。

raikado · 18 Oct 2015

二重橋は皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。
皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。

The first sentence mentions two properties of 二重橋, so で is the -te form. And I assume the で in the second sentence is the -te form as well. So, the second sentence says that the thing with those two properties is 二重橋.
The rest of the examples seem to follow this pattern. The first sentence describes the properties of something, while the second sentence says what is that "something" that has those properties.

Does this mean that in my original examples, で is the -te form?

Toritoribe · 18 Oct 2015

Can 皇居の正門にかかる橋 never be plural, not as a real fact but as a possibility? How about the followings?

二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。
皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、二重橋は観光スポットとして有名です。
皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。

raikado · 19 Oct 2015

皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。
As a possibility, yes it could be plural, but what's the point of saying "Among the bridges at the front gate of the Imperial Palace, the one who is famous as a sightseeing spot is 二重橋." when in fact there is only one?

二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。 I'd take it as の中で, though I am not 100% sure. ("二重橋 is famous as a sightseeing spot among the bridges that span over the moats at the Imperial Palace")
皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、二重橋は観光スポットとして有名です。で＝の中で
皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。 I don't know for sure anymore. I'd take it as の中で, I guess.

Toritoribe · 19 Oct 2015

raikado said:
皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。
As a possibility, yes it could be plural, but what's the point of saying "Among the bridges at the front gate of the Imperial Palace, the one who is famous as a sightseeing spot is 二重橋."

It's used, for instance, as an introduction of the explanation about those bridges.
皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。多くの観光客がこの橋の前で記念写真を撮ります。一方、もう一つの○○橋は二重橋ほど有名ではありませんが、……

raikado said:
二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。 I'd take it as の中で, though I am not 100% sure. ("二重橋 is famous as a sightseeing spot among the bridges that span over the moats at the Imperial Palace")

Then, how about 二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋です。この橋は観光スポットとして有名です。? 二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。 can't be considered just the combined version of these two sentences?
I don't think it's reasonable to stick to the strict distinction of で. In fact, the two interpretations (the -te form of copula and the particle) are both correct in many cases since the etymologies are the same and their usages are overlapping in some part.
そばをゆでたお湯で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。何と言いますか？ or １９８８年に映画「ラストエンペラー」で、日本人ではじめてアカデミー賞作曲賞を受賞した音楽家は誰ですか？ are exceptions in your examples. そば湯はそばをゆでたお湯で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。 can't be rephrased either as そばをゆでたお湯で、そば湯はさいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。 or そばをゆでたお湯で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲むのはそば湯です。 (This is the answer to "when in fact there is only one?")
It's common to show a rough/not-so-common information about the answer first, and more refined hint follows it in quiz, so those kind of structures would be preferred.

raikado · 21 Oct 2015

Now I am completely lost...

I don't understand at all why 皇居の正門にかかる橋で is used as an introduction for "those bridges", when there is only one bridge that could 皇居の正門にかかる, which is 二重橋. The question could be 皇居の正門にかかる橋は何ですか？ and the answer could still only be 二重橋. Just 皇居の正門にかかる橋で by itself describes 二重橋, there is no other bridge which has this property. Am I wrong here?

Toritoribe · 21 Oct 2015

Because the explanation about the two or more bridges follows it (not in the single sentence, but in the paragraph, of course).
Is it uncommon to give many hints about the answer in a quiz?

raikado · 21 Oct 2015

Toritoribe said:
Because the explanation about the two or more bridges follows it (not in the single sentence, but in the paragraph, of course).

You mean this paragraph, right? 皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。多くの観光客がこの橋の前で記念写真を撮ります。一方、もう一つの○○橋は二重橋ほど有名ではありませんが、……
But, do the ○○橋 bridges that follow need to have this property: 皇居の正門にかかる橋?

Toritoribe said:
Is it uncommon to give many hints about the answer in a quiz?

It's not that. I was struggling with the difference between 皇居の正門にかかる橋で… and そばをゆでたお湯で... . I think I know what my problem was now. そばをゆでたお湯で is not the same as そばをゆでたお湯の種類で, is it? If this is right, the next sentences should all be valid.
そば湯はそばをゆでたお湯の種類で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます
そばをゆでたお湯の種類で、そば湯はさいごにつゆにまぜて飲みます。
そばをゆでたお湯の種類で、さいごにつゆにまぜて飲むのはそば湯です。

Toritoribe · 22 Oct 2015

raikado said:
You mean this paragraph, right? 皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。多くの観光客がこの橋の前で記念写真を撮ります。一方、もう一つの○○橋は二重橋ほど有名ではありませんが、……
But, do the ○○橋 bridges that follow need to have this property: 皇居の正門にかかる橋?

Yes.

Do you mean そばをゆでたお湯の一種? No, it's not valid since ALL そばをゆでたお湯 is そば湯. そばをゆでたお湯 is そば湯, and そば湯 is そばをゆでたお湯.

raikado · 22 Oct 2015

I found out yesterday that there are actually two bridges at the front gate of the Imperial Palace. I am really sorry for all the confusion, I should've double checked.

But, I still have a problem with 3). The で from 3) is the same as the で from 1), right? But this time, I'm sure there is only one 北海道の東にある世界遺産. So 知床 is 北海道の東にある世界遺産, and 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is 知床. Is this not the same as the そば湯 sentence?
株式会社アルク

Toritoribe said:
Do you mean そばをゆでたお湯の一種? No, it's not valid since ALL そばをゆでたお湯 is そば湯. そばをゆでたお湯 is そば湯, and そば湯 is そばをゆでたお湯.

No, I did mean 種類. I thought that hypothetically there could be more than one type of そばをゆでたお湯. But I get it now, there can't be more.

What about this sentence though 皇居の正門にかかる橋の一つで、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。
二重橋 is 皇居の正門にかかる橋のひとつ, but 皇居の正門にかかる橋のひとつ is NOT only 皇居. So, is the above sentence valid?

Toritoribe · 22 Oct 2015

raikado said:
But, I still have a problem with 3). The で from 3) is the same as the で from 1), right? But this time, I'm sure there is only one 北海道の東にある世界遺産. So 知床 is 北海道の東にある世界遺産, and 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is 知床. Is this not the same as the そば湯 sentence?

For confirmation, are you talking about the original question sentence in the quiz?

raikado said:
No, I did mean 種類.

I meant the word 種類 can't be used there, and it should be 一種 when そばをゆでたお湯 has variations.

raikado said:
What about this sentence though 皇居の正門にかかる橋の一つで、観光スポットとして有名なのは二重橋です。
二重橋 is 皇居の正門にかかる橋のひとつ, but 皇居の正門にかかる橋のひとつ is NOT only 皇居. So, is the above sentence valid?

Yes.

raikado · 23 Oct 2015

Toritoribe said:
For confirmation, are you talking about the original question sentence in the quiz?

Yes. 北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは、どこですか？. Or this one too 北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です. They should be the same.

Toritoribe said:
I meant the word 種類 can't be used there, and it should be 一種 when そばをゆでたお湯 has variations.

Oh, ok.

Hmm, and this one 皇居の正門にかかる橋の一つで、二重橋は観光スポットとして有名です。? I think this one isn't valid.

Toritoribe · 24 Oct 2015

They both are valid whether 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is singular or plural. In that sense, yes.
北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です needs a context when it's used in real articles, as same as the 二重橋 case. For instance, it might be a part of a paragraph regarding world heritages in Japan.
日本には現在合計〇箇所の世界遺産があります。では北から順にみていきましょう。
北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です。2005年自然遺産に登録されました。……

As for quiz, this kind of limitation is not required. 北海道の東にある世界遺産で and 六本木にあるビルで can be recognized as the same nuance to the answerers. That's why I pointed out the problem to use quiz as an example.

A few sentences with で

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

先輩

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

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