～を～とする

raikado · 12 Feb 2016

Hello,

Can you help me with the AをBとする construction, please? I am not sure I am getting its meaning and how it differs from AをBにする right. I am talking about this one する【為る】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

㋒（多く「…を…にする」「…を…とする」の形で）人や物事を今とはちがった状態のものにならせる。ある地位に就かせたり、ある用に当てたりする。「息子を先生にする」「彼を会長にする」「肘 (ひじ) を曲げて枕とする」「失敗を教訓として生かす」

a) The particle と is this one ４動作・状態などの結果を表す。「有罪―決定した」「復讐 (ふくしゅう) の鬼―化した」, right? (と［格助接助並助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)

b) My understanding right now is that "AをBにする" is pretty much similar to "make A into B" (perform an action on B so that it becomes A), and "AをBとする" is more like "perceive A as B" / "view A as B" / "regard A as B" (no action performed on B, just a change in perspective).

Even considering what I wrote above, the idea transmitted by these two sentences seems almost the same to me 肘を曲げて枕にする肘を曲げて枕とする.

c) Assuming what I wrote is true, does it still hold true for expressions like ～を～と必要する, ～を～と職業とする?

Hoge · 12 Feb 2016

a) The particle と is this one ４動作・状態などの結果を表す。「有罪―決定した」「復讐 (ふくしゅう) の鬼―化した」, right? (と［格助接助並助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)
Yes. But the term 動作・状態などの結果 is very misleading.

b) My understanding right now is that "AをBにする" is pretty much similar to "make A into B" (perform an action on B so that it becomes A), and "AをBとする" is more like "perceive A as B" / "view A as B" / "regard A as B" (no action performed on B, just a change in perspective).
No, it has nothing to do with perceive/view/regard in this case.

the idea transmitted by these two sentences seems almost the same to me 肘を曲げて枕にする肘を曲げて枕とする.
Basically, yes. The same thing holds for the pair "AがBになる" and "AがBとなる"

c) Assuming what I wrote is true, does it still hold true for expressions like ～を～と必要する, ～を～と職業とする?[/QUOTE]
If you mean ～を必要とする, ～を職業とする yes.

Hoge · 12 Feb 2016

Sorry, we say ～を必要とする but not ～を必要にする
To the contrary, we say 彼を馬鹿にする but not 彼を馬鹿とする

Toritoribe · 12 Feb 2016

raikado said:
Hello,

Can you help me with the AをBとする construction, please? I am not sure I am getting its meaning and how it differs from AをBにする right. I am talking about this one する【為る】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

a) The particle と is this one ４動作・状態などの結果を表す。「有罪―決定した」「復讐 (ふくしゅう) の鬼―化した」, right? (と［格助接助並助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)

b) My understanding right now is that "AをBにする" is pretty much similar to "make A into B" (perform an action on B so that it becomes A), and "AをBとする" is more like "perceive A as B" / "view A as B" / "regard A as B" (no action performed on B, just a change in perspective).

Even considering what I wrote above, the idea transmitted by these two sentences seems almost the same to me 肘を曲げて枕にする肘を曲げて枕とする.

c) Assuming what I wrote is true, does it still hold true for expressions like ～を～と必要する, ～を～と職業とする?

Actually, it's far more complicated probably than you thought. Some meanings can be applied to both expressions (e.g. "decision" 耳の会は3月3日を耳の日と/にした), and some are not (e.g. "hypothetical " is only for とする (彼を犯人とすると、つじつまが合う), and "change" is only for にする (娘を医者にする)).

Here is an interesting thesis for this problem.
「とする」と「にする」の違い : 意味・用法を中心にして
The Differences between 'to suru' and 'ni suru' : Focusing on the Meanings and the Usages
Soka University Repository: 「とする」と「にする」の違い : 意味・用法を中心にして
(33pages pdf file, all in Japanese)

raikado · 13 Feb 2016

Yes, I meant ～を必要とする, ～を職業とする. Sorry for that.

Toritoribe said:
「とする」と「にする」の違い : 意味・用法を中心にして
The Differences between 'to suru' and 'ni suru' : Focusing on the Meanings and the Usages
Soka University Repository: 「とする」と「にする」の違い : 意味・用法を中心にして

33 pages...oh boy...
My vocabulary is nowhere near close to that level. But I will try to make my way through it, sentence by sentence. I should probably learn these words anyway.

Thank you both! I'll be back in a few weeks hopefully.

raikado · 16 Feb 2016

Ok, I was way too ambitious with this. I've barely made any progress (not even past the introduction yet) and understanding new words from this is way harder than usual. Also, I've encountered this word that I cannot find anywhere (将前). I'm assuming it's a typo?
相違点は「とする」が引用,仮定,将前,決定,同定を,「にする」が決定,変化,実現努力,仮想同定の意味を表す点と構文の違いであった。

Toritoribe · 16 Feb 2016

将前/将然（相） is a linguistic technical term to indicate an aspect of verbs. The name is originally from まさにそうなる/する前.
an example of classification
将前相: しようとする
開始相: し始める / しだす
進行相: している / しつつある
継続相: し続ける / していく
終結相: し終わる
結果相: している / してある
停止相: しやむ / しかける
保持相: しておく

The writer wrote the definition on the page 20.

III.将前
「何かが起こる,または,何かを起こす手前の状態にある(小泉1989)」とされるものである。簡潔に「将前」とする。

raikado · 17 Feb 2016

Thanks! I didn't think to search the paper itself.

～を～とする

raikado

先輩

Hoge

破落戸

Hoge

破落戸

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

raikado

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

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