～がたい vs. ～にくい

Mandylion

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15 Mar 2003

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• 17 Nov 2003

• #1

Okay, here's the deal.

I have spoken to a bunch of different people about this and they have all given me slightly different shades of gray as to when you use ～がたい and when you use ～にくい (both mean "difficult to do," more or less). Thought it couldn't hurt to ask a few more...

Does anybody have a good rule (hopefully easy to remember) for these two grammar points?

 

nata_no

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15 Nov 2003

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• 18 Nov 2003

• #2

Hello, I've checked my dict and here's the difference.

~gatai (un~)
eg. unforgettable scene, unforgivable error, hard to believe something

~nikui (hard/difficult-->more to negative meaning)
eg. its hard to read from the blackboard, i hate to ask you but lend me some money

hope this helps, i've learnt something new too!

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• 18 Nov 2003

• #3

Actually I thought し難い had the stronger and more negative connotation.

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• 18 Nov 2003

• #4

The only grammatical rules I've seen on this were that "gutai" was only used in writing and of the two only "nikui" could be used with intransitive verbs. The source may not be completely reliable though, so do either of these square at all with any one else's understanding?

 

Mandylion

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• 18 Nov 2003

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• #5

Thanks guys, but I was also told by two different sources that "verb + gatai" can be used in speech too, which is really where this problem comes from.

Just so we are on the same page here, I'll give you what I have from the 2kyu study guide about verb+gatai

～するのは難しい ・ なかなか～することができない。

Which is how a lot of texts explain ～にくい too.

Here is a question from the practice test. People can tell me that it is for sure にくい (nikui) but not give me a really good rule why it is not がたい (gatai).

４）このカーテンは（ ）生地（きじ）を使っています。
a. 燃えにくい b.燃えがたい

燃える（moeru) burn, to burn, etc.

Not surprising we are having trouble with it. The Japanese folks I know also have trouble too. But lets keep at it

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• 19 Nov 2003

• #6

I think "gatai" has more to do with psychological states or feelings such as memory or perception. It's probably similiar to wasurerarenai -- even if you want to forget it is impossible.

 

Mandylion

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• 19 Nov 2003

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• #7

oooh, good answer! Thanks...

 

mdchachi

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• 19 Nov 2003

• #8

I don't quite understand the differences in nuance but I'm told that you only use -gatai in relation to 人の行動
ie you wouldn't use it on verbs that don't relate to human actions.

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• 19 Nov 2003

• #9

I finally got around to asking someone as well and here is her pretty thorough explanation.


この前から何度か話している「し難い」と言う表現ですが、説明するのが難しいです。日本語には、英語にない表現や、なかなか伝えにくいニュアンスが沢山あります。 「し難い」を使った例文を書いてみます。＞＞日本での思い出は、忘れがたいものです。 は、 忘れられないと言うよりもっと強い気持ちが現れています。 電話で感情や気持ちの表現でおもに使うと言いましたが、他でもよく使う時がありました。それは、何かを予定したり（たとえば旅行でどの町に行くか迷っている時）とか、あれもこれも欲しいけどどれを選ぼうか迷っている時、「どうしてもこれだけは、はずせない」という強い気持ちを込めて使う場合もあります。例文としては、＞＞行きたい所は、沢山あるけど京都は、どうしても捨てがたいなあ。。。。とか、 あの服もこのスカートも可愛いけど、このブラウスは捨てがたいなあ。。。と言う風に使ったりします。Can't afford to miss it. or impossible to miss it.みたいな感じなのかな？

 

nata_no

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15 Nov 2003

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• 20 Nov 2003

• #10

Originally posted by Elizabeth
I think "gatai" has more to do with psychological states or feelings such as memory or perception. It's probably similiar to wasurerarenai -- even if you want to forget it is impossible.

Click to expand...

Hey, this sounds right!! Is this explanation the same as the one u mentioned above?

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• 20 Nov 2003

• #11

Originally posted by nata_no
Hey, this sounds right!! Is this explanation the same as the one u mentioned above?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was on the right track, but she actually talks first about "wasuregatai" compared to "wasurerarenai" as a more intense feeling of being caught in the past or it being impossible to forget something (eg memories of time in Japan) but then goes on to say there is more common use having to do with strongly suggesting (pushing) a particular plan or course of action. In the given example, if someone is undecided about which city to visit on an upcoming trip you might say to them (捨てがたい) ("sutetegatai" :you can't afford to throw away the chance to see....Kyoto for instance). Or if someone is having a hard time choosing between a nice skirt and blouse -- they might be advised "although that skirt is cute, you really can't miss the chance to wear that blouse" (あの服もこのスカートも可愛いけど、このブラウスは捨てがたいなあ。。。と言う
風に使ったりします.). I hope this helps. We could surely use something like it in English .

 

Mandylion

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• 20 Nov 2003

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• #12

Fantastic! Thanks for your help Elizabeth. Pretty much on par with what I have been hearing as of late too...

 

Elizabeth

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• 21 Nov 2003

• #13

No problem, Mandylion. Let's talk next about the differences between のが・のは難しい vs. 難い when you have a chance.

 

Mandylion

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• 21 Nov 2003

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• #14

It'll be a few days before I can get back to the books. I'll give it a shot over the long weekend here in Japan.