表するところの～

UsoToChinmoku · 11 Aug 2015

「これってつまり、平易な日本語で表するところの．．．」

What kind of ところ usage is this? I know that there's a set phrase 謂う所の～ But according to the dictionary, the derivation is 《「所謂」の訓読から》. So basically, it's just いわゆる spelled/read differently? But how is ところの～ used with 表する then? Can this ところの～ be combined with other words?
If you google "表するところの" you get only 14 hits... But this is from an actual manga, so I assume it is in fact used, even if not very widely.

Toritoribe · 11 Aug 2015

ところ【所／処】
４
㋑《西洋語の関係代名詞の翻訳から、格助詞「の」を介して、体言またはそれに準じるものを修飾して》連体修飾語の役割をする。多く翻訳調の文章に用いられる。「世に知られている―の画家」「かつて訪れた―の屋敷」

ところ【所／処】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

表すところの gives 3,320 hits.

UsoToChinmoku · 11 Aug 2015

Toritoribe said:
表すところの gives 3,320 hits.

The sentence was "表(ひょう)するところの" not "表(ひょう/あらわ)すところの" though. But yes, it seem that 表すところの is used relatively often.

Toritoribe said:
ところ【所／処】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書.

I see. The explanation is a bit unclear though. It says it acts as a 連体修飾語, but it's not explained how it affects the meaning of the sentence. Since it is derived from "西洋語の関係代名詞の翻訳" I assume it still works as a relative pronoun? So basically just connects words/sentences with no meaning in particular?

Toritoribe · 11 Aug 2015

UsoToChinmoku said:
The sentence was "表(ひょう)するところの" not "表(ひょう/あらわ)すところの" though. But yes, it seem that 表すところの is used relatively often.

Yes, I know it, of course. I pointed out that the meanings of the two words are almost the same and 表す is far more commonly used.

UsoToChinmoku said:
I see. The explanation is a bit unclear though. It says it acts as a 連体修飾語, but it's not explained how it affects the meaning of the sentence. Since it is derived from "西洋語の関係代名詞の翻訳" I assume it still works as a relative pronoun? So basically just connects words/sentences with no meaning in particular?

Right. It's from "a painter who is well known in the world" or "a house which I visited once", so the meaning is the same as 世に知られている画家 and かつて訪れた屋敷, respectively. It gives a nuance of "translation-like (stiff/academic)", as in the dictionary, though.

UsoToChinmoku · 11 Aug 2015

Got it.

Although, if it's supposed to give a translation-like feel I assume it's not used often in daily conversations? Gives off a bit of a "pompous" feeling, no?

So basically, from what I gathered - the Chinese 所謂 was transliterated to "謂う所の" which was reworded to いわゆる with the Chinese kanji 所謂 still left intact?
So the Japanese borrowed the relative pronoun usage of "ところ" from the Chinese "所"?

Toritoribe · 11 Aug 2015

UsoToChinmoku said:
Although, if it's supposed to give a translation-like feel I assume it's not used often in daily conversations? Gives off a bit of a "pompous" feeling, no?

Basically, yes. It's also used jokingly, though.

UsoToChinmoku said:
So basically, from what I gathered - the Chinese 所謂 was transliterated to "謂う所の" which was reworded to いわゆる with the Chinese kanji 所謂 still left intact?
So "ところ" became used as relative pronoun in Japanese because the Chinese kanji indicating a relative pronoun was "所"?

Right.

UsoToChinmoku · 11 Aug 2015

Toritoribe said:
Basically, yes. It's also used jokingly, though.

Ah, that makes sense. The sentence I used as an example was a set-up for a joke.

Thanks for the help.

表するところの～

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Toritoribe

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