為に

tanhql · 5 Nov 2006

is 為に/為 used the same way as the chinese 為(了)? thanks.

Damicci · 6 Nov 2006

Considering most people here don't speak chinese that's probably a difficult question to answer.

based on the kanji you provided in parenthesis I would say no.

Elizabeth · 6 Nov 2006

Unless this was directed to someone in particular, why don't you give us an example of the Chinese and make it easier for us all to participate ?

Considering the word has at least three usages in Japanese (for, in order to and due to/because), there's a chance at least one of them may be similar.

Damicci · 6 Nov 2006

Does 了 have another meaning besides completion? this is what rikai and moji pull up for me. My 辞書 does'nt find a meaning for just 了。

僕はDSLiteの辞書を使っています。

Elizabeth · 6 Nov 2006

Damicci said:
Does 了 have another meaning besides completion? this is what rikai and moji pull up for me. My 辞書 does'nt find a meaning for just 了。

僕はDSLiteの辞書を使っています。

It's also used in the sense of understand and acknowledge. 了解、了承。。。
but not the kanji alone that I know of either. I couldn't even find that in an online Chinese dictionary.

moofs · 6 Nov 2006

verb + 了 = past tense. (ie 送了 = sent or 完了 = finished)
So yeah, basically 了 means to do something to completion/finished doing something. So 了解 = finished understanding.

Tanhql: Yes, it's used the same.
For example, the sentence "Do you know how much I sacrificed for you?" would be 你知道我為了你犧牲了多少嗎? in chinese, and 君の為にどれくらい捧げたのか分かる? in Japanese. 為什麼 = 何のために or just なぜ or どうして

For 因為, though, it's not the same. 因為 would be more like ~のせいで.
E.g., 因為他我才遲到的. -> 彼のせいで遅れてしまった.

PS: I don't even know if that Japanese sentence is correct for that first example; why did I have to choose such a hard example...

Elizabeth · 6 Nov 2006

For example, the sentence "Do you know how much I sacrificed for you?" would be 你知道我為了你犧牲了多少嗎? in Chinese, and 君の為にどれくらい捧げたのか分かる? in

私があなたのためにどれほど（どれだけ ?）犠牲になったか（あなたは）わかりますか？が正しい使い方でしょうか？:?

The word order in Chinese looks like it might be more different than English than I thought. Either that or I'm only looking at it from the wrong angle ^^.

tanhql · 6 Nov 2006

thanks, moofs.

also, what does 遅れてしまった mean? is it ~て+しまった? does adjectives have this kind of conjugation too?

Glenn · 6 Nov 2006

moofs said:
verb + 了 = past tense. (ie 送了 = sent or 完了 = finished)
So yeah, basically 了 means to do something to completion/finished doing something. So 了解 = finished understanding.

I thought that Chinese 了 (le) was an aspect marker, and that it marks completion but not necessarily events in the past. Also, I thought 了 (liǎo) meant "to finish" something, but when I checked the dictionary, it said "understand/know."

By the way, isn't 了解 a simplification of 瞭解?

moofs said:
For 因為, though, it's not the same. 因為 would be more like ~のせいで.
E.g., 因為他我才遲到的. -> 彼のせいで遅れてしまった.

No kidding? I thought it just meant "because." Well, that's interesting.

Elizabeth said:
The word order in Chinese looks like it might be more different than English than I thought. Either that or I'm only looking at it from the wrong angle ^^. :emblaugh:

Yeah, it's sort of an admixture of Japanese and English as far as word order goes. For instance, I believe 我說話 is 私は話す, and 我說的話 is 私が言ったこと. Someone feel free to correct that if it's wrong.

tanhql said:
thanks, moofs.

also, what does 遅れてしまった mean? is it ~て+しまった? does adjectives have this kind of conjugation too?

～てしまう means something is done completely and/or to the regret of the speaker. In the case of 遅れてしまった, the speaker is showing that someone was regrettably late. It can't be appended to adjectives, only verbs.

I think it's a little deeper than that, actually, but those are the basics of it.

moofs · 6 Nov 2006

I guess I kinda oversimplified things there, didn't I? Sorry!

Glenn, you are right on your assumptions of the functions of 了. It doesn't actually mark an event in the past, and there really is no way to make verbs in Chinese past tense (you'd used adverbs like "yesterday"). But, by completing a task or something, what you did was basically in the past, right? At the moment of saying it, the task has already been completed. You can think of it as the verb-ed equivalent in Chinese. I'm pretty sure 了解 is the simplified (not in the sense of traditional character -> simplified character) version of 瞭解, though there's probably more to it. You'll almost never see 瞭解 anymore. If you try googling for 瞭解 the results would come up with ones that contain 了解 instead.

Again, you are right that 因為 pretty much means "because", but depending on context ~のせいで would be more closer to the intended meaning.

Elizabeth's sentence sure sounds more natural; I was wanting to use 犠牲 but I kept thinking of using it as a verb and not a noun... I'd never come up with what you came up even though it totally makes sentence to translate it that way now that I look at it, but I did ponder between using どれほど and どれくらい! Does my sentence even sound like something someone would say? I was thinking of using 捧げていた in place of just 捧げた.

Glenn · 6 Nov 2006

moofs said:
But, by completing a task or something, what you did was basically in the past, right? At the moment of saying it, the task has already been completed.

Not always. You can talk about completed actions in the future: "By tomorrow we will have finished this job."

moofs said:
Again, you are right that 因為 pretty much means "because", but depending on context ~のせいで would be more closer to the intended meaning.

Yeah, I just found it interesting that it seems only to be used in negative sentences. I didn't know that before.

Elizabeth · 6 Nov 2006

Elizabeth's sentence sure sounds more natural; I was wanting to use 犠牲 but I kept thinking of using it as a verb and not a noun... I'd never come up with what you came up even though it totally makes sentence to translate it that way now that I look at it, but I did ponder between using どれほど and どれくらい! Does my sentence even sound like something someone would say? I was thinking of using 捧げていた in place of just 捧げた.

Yeah, I don't think gisei wo shita is possible so either gisei ni natta or gisei ni shita or dore hodo or dore dake are fine. Gisei is such a loaded charge culturally, though, there must be an everyday, less literal take on the same line...捧げた perhaps or something else

undrentide · 7 Nov 2006

moofs said:
For example, the sentence "Do you know how much I sacrificed for you?" would be 你知道我為了你犧牲了多少嗎? in chinese, and 君の為にどれくらい捧げたのか分かる? in
PS: I don't even know if that Japanese sentence is correct for that first example; why did I have to choose such a hard example...

Some examples to clarify the difference between 犠牲にする・犠牲を払う and 捧げる.

To sacrifice (something) can be translated
～を犠牲にする。犠牲を払う
Do you know how much I sacrificed for you?
君のためにどれだけのことを犠牲にしたか／君のためにどれだけの犠牲をはらったかわかる？
To sacrifice oneself
自分を犠牲にする、犠牲になる
Do you know how much I sacrificed myself for you?
君のために僕がどれだけ犠牲になったか、わかる？
(Maybe the former sounds more natural.)

捧げる has wider meaning, to devote, dedicate, spend, pay - not necessarily to sacrifice.

為に

tanhql

日本語の学生

Damicci

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Damicci

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

moofs

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

tanhql

日本語の学生

Glenn

一切皆苦

moofs

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

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