口ひげのある

Can anyone tell me if the の in 口ひげのある and 口ひげのない has any meaning? If 口ひげ means 'moustache' I would have said 口ひげがある instead.

Cheers!

Could it be that the scentences are describing something along the lines of preferences? Say if a woman were to say "I prefer a man with a moustache" the above would be one of the ways they could say it. I guess this is one of the rules I don't quite know/understand (like the difference between "who" and "whom" in English, haha)

Bucko said:

Can anyone tell me if the の in 口ひげのある and 口ひげのない has any meaning? If 口ひげ means 'moustache' I would have said 口ひげがある instead.
Cheers!

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Oh, sure both の or が are fine, の is somewhat preferred actually. それを言うことが出来ますよね。。。

Yeah, I agree with both Karamucho and Elizabeth.
口ひげのある＝口ひげがある、口ひげのない＝口ひげがない
And I can't explain why, or I don't know the difference.... ^^;;;

It's off topic but I don't think 口ひげ is a common word. I'd rather say "ひげ" instead of "口ひげ".

I'm sorry I'm not sure the difference between "ひげのある" and "ひげがある"
As Elizabeth-san said, both are ok, but I think they're slightly different.
Speaking of the usage, you can say both "ひげのある人" and "ひげがある人", but you can't say "彼にはひげのある". "彼にはひげがある" is right.
lol I'm getting really confused!!

BTW, my boss actually has a moustache and I usually describe him as "ひげの人", "ひげを生やしてる人" or "ひげが生えてる人"

Yeah, you can't say something like それは意味のありますよ（のあると思う。。。など）。 without tagging こと (but not の） on the end to make それは意味のあることです。（ことは何。。。）。You can see why textbooks try to simplify everything so that の hardly ever comes out...They probably can't explain the differences either...

I'm always reluctant to jump into a thread where it seems that native speakers have already given their opinions, but, against my better judgment...

chickie said:

I'm sorry I'm not sure the difference between "ひげのある" and "ひげがある"

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I think the difference between the two is negligible -- at least, it's not significant enough that beginning students should feel the need to stress themselves out thinking about it.

chickie said:

Speaking of the usage, you can say both "ひげのある人" and "ひげがある人", but you can't say "彼にはひげのある". "彼にはひげがある" is right.
lol I'm getting really confused!!

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It's not really all that confusing. The basic guideline is that 「の」 can be used in place of the subject-marking 「が」 when the clause in question is modifying a noun.

So 「ひげのある人」 and 「ひげがある人」 are fine (and basically equivalent in meaning.)
Same for 「先生が書いた本」 and 「先生の書いた本」.
It works with adjectives too: e.g. 「英語がうまい人」 and 「英語のうまい人」.

But if you take out the noun being modified, none of those sentences work with 「の」.
Like chickie-san said, 「彼にはひげのある」 doesn't work. Likewise, 「あの本は先生の書いた」 or 「Aさんって、本当に英語のうまいね」 would be awkward and ungrammatical. Both of those would have to be 「が」 (well, the latter would work just fine with no particle at all.)

So, with apologies to Elizabeth...

Elizabeth said:

それを言うことの出来ますよね。。。

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Perhaps you were trying to illustrate the ga/no substitution, but that sentence doesn't sound grammatical to me.

BINANS (But I'm not a native speaker...)

jt

P.S. A big ohisashiburi to Elizabeth and everyone else who was around back when I used to post more often.

So, with apologies to Elizabeth...
Perhaps you were trying to illustrate the ga/no substitution, but that sentence doesn't sound grammatical to me.

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I know, to me either unless it's something super trendy. Since the first time I heard it (or thought I did) was this weekend, and then after this discussion I realized it probably wasn't but didn't have time to make the change.

@Elizabeth ,

I should apologize -- your second message (#6, above mine) didn't show up for me until after I posted. In that message, you basically explain the same thing I was trying to say (and much more succinctly, too).

I still think the distinction of when 「の」 can and can't substitute for 「が」 is fairly clearly defined, though.

chickie said:

I
It's off topic but I don't think 口ひげ is a common word. I'd rather say "ひげ" instead of "口ひげ".

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Our now ex-member Glenn-san did a bit of a background research job on the term at one point and his findings were that...

According to 明鏡国語辞典 (めいきょうこくごじてん), ひげ meaning mustache is 髭, for hair on the jaw it's 鬚, and for hair on the cheeks it's 髯. However, 髭 is used for all of them together as well.

I see. I guess if a noun is being modified I can see the logic in using の.

Thanks everyone!