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healer

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ですからわたしは知っています、不公正がどれほど簡単に普通のことになっていくかを。

I wonder what かを at the end of the above sentence mean and do in terms of grammar?

I’ve come across examples as follow. Both end with を like the one above. They are wishes for other people. Is there a verb after を that has been left out? I can’t compare these two examples with the sentence above.
フォースとともにあらんことを
よい結婚記念日を

What is あらんこと in the above sentence?
 

Toritoribe

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ですからわたしは知っています、不公正がどれほど簡単に普通のことになっていくかを。

I wonder what かを at the end of the above sentence mean and do in terms of grammar?
That's an inversion. The usual word order is;

わたしは、不公正がどれほど簡単に普通のことになっていくかを知っています.

I’ve come across examples as follow. Both end with を like the one above. They are wishes for other people.
Right, but it's not always for other people. It can be for us/me.

Is there a verb after を that has been left out?
Yes, for instance;

フォースとともにあらんことを祈る
よい結婚記念日をお過ごしください.

What is あらんこと in the above sentence?
ん is the euphonic change of a classical auxiliary verb む for guess or will. It's equivalent to フォースとともにあるように祈る or along the line.
 

healer

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ていくかを
so the か in the sentence just indicates that it is a question in a sentence, am I right?
And the ていくhere is an auxiliary verb for the time flow referring to the future of the reference point, isn't it?
Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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so the か in the sentence just indicates that it is a question in a sentence, am I right?
"An interrogative(どれ in your example) + か at the end of the clause" works as a noun clause. As you can see in the examples below, it's not a question.

いつ彼が来た(を)知っている。
I know when he came.

彼の家がどこにある(を)知っている。
I know where his house is.

が社長(を)知っている。
I know who the CEO is.

彼がを探している(を)知っている。
I know what he is looking for.

なぜ彼が来なかった(を)知っている。
I know why he did not come.

彼がどう(やって)作った(を)知っている。
I know how he made it.

And the ていくhere is an auxiliary verb for the time flow referring to the future of the reference point, isn't it?
Right.
 

healer

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Thanks for your help! Toritoribe-san.

That's an inversion.
I have been told that words in a sentence of the Japanese language can be in any order as long as the main verb is right at the end. I don't know how true it is. I guess one would put the word where emphasis is intended to be right at the beginning. Is it the only possibility why inversion would have taken place in the example sentence?
 

Toritoribe

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Inversion is indeed used for emphasis, but it's not always put at the begining of the sentence. It's put on the object in your example.
 

healer

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Re: そしてイギリスを、恵まれたごく一部の人々にではなく、すべての人に益する国にしていくのです。
Which verb goes with the particle を in the sentence above?

Re: 日本で食べるうなぎのほとんどは、海でとった小さいうなぎを池で大きく育てたものです。
I’m not sure how を grammatically works in the above sentence? Does it go with 育てた?
Is ほとんど a noun?
Does the sentence mean the following?
"Almost all the eels eaten in Japan, those caught in the sea are small and those bred in the ponds are big."
 

zuotengdazuo

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Hi.
Re: そしてイギリスを、恵まれたごく一部の人々にではなく、すべての人に益する国にしていくのです。
Which verb goes with the particle を in the sentence above?
I think it’s にしていく that goes with the particle を (AをBにする=make A into B). I don’t quite understand the function of the ていく, though.😅
 

healer

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Thanks for your comment!

it’s にしていく that goes with the particle を
You have reminded me of something. The structure of the sentence having a comma after を, it is very likely that it is the main verb which is always at the end of the sentence that the main particle which is を goes with.

function of the ていく
As far as I know, the ていくis an auxiliary verb referring to a period of time from a reference point in the future.
 

Toritoribe

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Re: 日本で食べるうなぎのほとんどは、海でとった小さいうなぎを池で大きく育てたものです。
I’m not sure how を grammatically works in the above sentence? Does it go with 育てた?
Is ほとんど a noun?
All yes.

Does the sentence mean the following?
"Almost all the eels eaten in Japan, those caught in the sea are small and those bred in the ponds are big."
No.
The core of the sentence is ほとんどは、うなぎを育てたものです。
Both 海でとった and 小さい modify うなぎ.
池で大きく育てた modifies もの.

Your translation means 海でとったうなぎは小さい and 池で育てたものは大きい. Can you see the difference?

The structure of the sentence having a comma after を, it is very likely that it is the main verb which is always at the end of the sentence that the main particle which is を goes with.
It's not "always at the end of the sentence". A comma after を often suggests that を is not associated with the verb that appears right after it (恵まれた in this case). In other words, a phrase or something like that is inserted before the verb where を is connected.
e.g.
イギリスを、恵まれたごく一部の人々にではなく、すべての人に益する国にしていき、みんなで幸せに暮らしたいのです。

As you can see, イギリスを is not the object of 暮らしたい which is the main verb put at the end of the sentence.

As far as I know, the ていくis an auxiliary verb referring to a period of time from a reference point in the future.
What do you mean by "referring to a period of time from a reference point in the future"?
 

healer

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I suppose もの refers to eel, instead of repeatedly saying うなぎ. Can もの be used to refer to anything, such as animal or human being or any inanimate object, for such purpose?

Can you see the difference?
With the proper translation I can work out what を does in the sentence. Thanks a lot!

A comma after を often suggests that を is not associated with the verb that appears right after it
Thanks for clarification.
Is having を and the the relevant verb far apart as in this case where a comma after を is necessary for clarity only suitable in writing? I suspect it might be awkward or still not immediately clear to simply pause after を in mid-sentence while talking.

みんなで幸せに暮らしたいのです
Is たい in 暮らしたい here the auxiliary adjective means “want to”?

イギリスを is not the object of 暮らしたい
It looks like the context still needs to scrutinised to determine which verb goes with を.

What do you mean by "referring to a period of time from a reference point in the future"?
It should be open-ended. The action starts from a point in time in the future but no end is specified or known.

Have a good day! Toritoribe-san!
 

Toritoribe

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Can もの be used to refer to anything, such as animal or human being or any inanimate object, for such purpose?
Yes, like 地球に生きているものすべて. The kanji 者 is used for people, though.

Is having を and the the relevant verb far apart as in this case where a comma after を is necessary for clarity only suitable in writing? I suspect it might be awkward or still not immediately clear to simply pause after を in mid-sentence while talking.
Actually, it often occurs in conversations. It's not uncommon to insert phrases/clauses between the object and verb in real conversations.

Is たい in 暮らしたい here the auxiliary adjective means “want to”?
Yes.

It looks like the context still needs to scrutinised to determine which verb goes with を.
Exactly.

The action starts from a point in time in the future
"Now" can be the starting point (or more likely, "now" would be more common if the starting point is not mentioned (e.g. 来週から涼しくなっていきます)).
 

healer

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I’m not sure whether I should start a new thread for the questions below. If I should, please let me know the rules.

I have come across the following sentences.
1) これは新幹線を大阪までです
This is the shinkansen to Osaka.
2) 歩くのを二十分くらいです
It is about twenty minutes to walk.
3) 暗闇を怖がる

I understand を is used with intransitive verbs for location to leave, location to pass and direction of action as well as the location where motion occurs.

I’m not sure how を fit in with the first two sentences. Have they got some verb omitted in the former and some places for 歩く in the latter? Lastly 怖がる is defined as intransitive verb in a few dictionaries I looked up, but I’ve found quite a few 暗闇を怖がる on the Internet.
 

Toritoribe

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I’m not sure how を fit in with the first two sentences.
Simply, #1 and 2 are ungrammatical. This is another example to show how many unreliable learning sites exist in the internet. Judging from example sentences used there, I recommend not using the site Miageru anymore.

Lastly 怖がる is defined as intransitive verb in a few dictionaries I looked up, but I’ve found quite a few 暗闇を怖がる on the Internet.
Those dictionaries are wrong.

こわ‐が・る〔こは‐〕【怖がる/▽恐がる】 の解説
[動ラ五(四)]こわいという気持ちを態度や表情に表す。「小さな子が暗がり―・る」

 

healer

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Judging from example sentences used there, I recommend not using the site Miageru anymore.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll take note of it. If I have the を replaced with はin both sentences,could they be alright? I suppose I can’t have two は’s in the first one. So I might have it done as “これが新幹線は大阪までです”. The other one would be “歩くのは二十分くらいです”. Please comment!

In the same dictionary that stated that こわがる is an intransitive verb. All the examples therewith have the verb go with を though.

I saw the following excerpt at 自動詞・他動詞 - ことば・辞書・日本語文法(2).
こわがる【怖がる】(自五)

   怖いと思う(様子をする)。 [新明解国語辞典第七版]

 こわ‐が・る【怖がる(▽恐がる)】他五

   怖いという気持ちを態度に表す。びくびくする。おそろしがる。

When I asked around,someone gave me this link. It seems to say こわがる can be intransitive or transitive depending on the context. Certainly I could well be wrong in fully understanding the Japanese text. Please help me!
 
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Toritoribe

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If I have the を replaced with はin both sentences,could they be alright? I suppose I can’t have two は’s in the first one. So I might have it done as “これが新幹線は大阪までです”. The other one would be “歩くのは二十分くらいです”.
No for #1. これが新幹線は大阪までです doesn't make sense, either. It should be これは大阪まで行く/大阪行きの新幹線です for "This is the shinkansen to Osaka."

この新幹線は大阪までです is understandable, but この新幹線は大阪行きです is more common. These expressions are equivalent to "This shinkansen is to Osaka".


As for #2, 歩くのは二十分くらいです is understandable, but this sentence means "walking is about twenty minutes", so it's more likely used in a context where you walk partially when moving to somewhere.
e.g.
公園までは3時間くらいかかりますが、ほとんどはバス移動で、歩くのは二十分くらいです。

歩いて二十分くらいです is more common for explaining the distance to a place.
e.g.
寮から大学までは歩いて二十分くらいです。

In the same dictionary that stated that こわがる is an intransitive verb. All the examples therewith have the verb go with を though.

I saw the following excerpt at 自動詞・他動詞 - ことば・辞書・日本語文法(2).
こわがる【怖がる】(自五)

   怖いと思う(様子をする)。 [新明解国語辞典第七版]

 こわ‐が・る【怖がる(▽恐がる)】他五

   怖いという気持ちを態度に表す。びくびくする。おそろしがる。

When I asked around,someone gave me this link. It seems to say こわがる can be intransitive or transitive depending on the context. Certainly I could well be wrong in fully understanding the Japanese text.
It's not "こわがる can be intransitive or transitive depending on the context". As the writer of the site says 心理的な動詞で、ヲ格をとる場合、新明解は自動詞とし、明鏡は他動詞とする傾向がある, the definition differs depending on the dictionary. He also says 単純に言って、ヲ格をとる例を挙げながら、自動詞だとする新明解の立場は、何らかの説明を要するように思います at the end of the page, i.e., 新明解国語辞典 should explain why they think those verbs are intransitive despite being used with を.

Here's a related post I wrote before.


As I mentioned there, the problem is that the definition of 自動詞/他動詞 is not clearly stated in Japanese grammar. There are some hypotheses. The following page explains about the three major definitions concisely.

(all in Japanese)

I believe the most useful and easy-to-understand one for non-native learners, and therefore the most commonly used in textbooks, is "whether the verb can take を or not", so I've been using this definition in this forum. Of course you can have questions about the definition of transitive and intransitive verbs, but it's not so useful to think about it too much, especially in the early stage of learning, I think. It's more helpful to remember that 怖がる takes を even though some dictionaries call the verb intransitive, I believe.

You would come across similar cases, for instance "noun vs. adjective" in this thread. As I pointed out there, the definitions in dictionaries could sometimes be useless, or could even confuse learners. The point is how the word is really used, not what the definition of the word is in dictionaries. My two cents.
 

bentenmusume

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What does this mean? Does it refer to verbs that go with を?
Yes, in this case it's referring to verbs that "take the を particle", just like we might say in English, i.e. verbs that you use the を particle with.

Are there any other verbs behave like こわがる, i.e. classified as intransitive but take を?
Note again that, as Toritoribe-san explained, it is only some dictionaries that classify them as intransitive, and other linguists disagree with this classification (or at least believe it requires some justification why this is the case).

But to answer your question, in cases where を is not functioning as the direct object particle but rather one of the other functions of を (movement through an area, etc.), many intransitive verbs can and indeed do take を. There is a summary of such examples right there on the page Toritoribeさん linked for you:

日本語の自動詞と他動詞 said:
3 自動詞で「を」格を使う場合

自動詞文では、対象に「を」格は使えない。しかし、場所、経路、位置関係、時点、期間、取り巻く状況などを示す場合には「を」格を用いる。これらは動作の対象ではない。

① 移動する場所・経路:「道を歩く」「公園を走る」「 空を飛ぶ」「橋を渡る」
② 動作・作用の行われる時間・期間:「この一年を無事に生きてきた」
③ 動作の出発点・分離点・経過点:「故郷を離れる」「バスを降りる」「家を出る」「2時を10分過ぎる」
④ 位置関係:「先頭を走る」「最後を歩く」
⑤ 取り巻く状況:「嵐の中を歩く」
 

Toritoribe

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Are there any other verbs behave like こわがる, i.e. classified as intransitive but take を?
Your questions so far clearly show that you, too, think that verbs that are used with を are transitive verbs. In this way of classification, the dictionaries that say "こわがる is intransitive" are not correct. That's why I wrote "Those dictionaries are wrong." in my initial reply.
 

healer

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Yes, in this case it's referring to verbs that "take the を particle
Thanks for your help, bentenmusume-san.

Your questions so far clearly show that you, too, think that verbs that are used with を are transitive verbs.
No, I would never argue. I completely accept and understand what you’re getting at. And I agree that I would simply bear in mind that こわがる goes with を.

Perhaps my question wasn’t worded clearly. I was asking if there’re other verbs like こわがる that go with を and could also be unjustifiably classified by some dictionaries as intransitive verbs. I guess some other verbs of feeling might be treated the same way. One of them I’ve just found is 感ずる which is also classified as an intransitive verb in one of the dictionaries I use. One of the examples given there is 人生から非常な喜びを感ずる。

これは大阪まで行く/大阪行きの新幹線です
この新幹線は大阪行きです
By the way I forgot to ask if 行き here usually said as ゆき instead of いき whereas 行く is いくnot ゆく in this context. Please comment!
 

Toritoribe

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I was asking if there’re other verbs like こわがる that go with を and could also be unjustifiably classified by some dictionaries as intransitive verbs.
Ah, I see. Sorry for my misinterpretation.

Unfortunately, I don't have those dictionaries, so I can't check.

行き here usually said as ゆき instead of いき
Both ゆき and いき are used.

whereas 行く is いくnot ゆく in this context
Both ゆく and いく are used. いく might be more common, though.
 
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