もの

Rei Yahya · 19 Oct 2012

I just want to check my basic comprehension on how to use 'mono' by itself, both as a sentence ender and a conjunction.

まだ日本に行けないよ！もっと勉強は必要があるもの。 I can't go to Japan yet! More study is necessary.

もっと勉強は必要があるもの、まだ日本に行けないよ。 More study is necessary, so I can't go to Japan yet.

Critiques, advice? よろしく!

Toritoribe · 19 Oct 2012

もっと勉強の/する必要があるもん or もっと勉強が必要だもん

The latter sounds more natural as spoken words. もの is not incorrect, but could sound feminine.

Another option is もっと勉強しなきゃいけないもん.

Rei Yahya · 19 Oct 2012

Thank you, Torotoribe! Do I have the general usage of 'mono/mon' correct? In that it's like a 'because', 'since', 'so', making the previous sentence or clause a reason? Also, thank you for your critiques. So I should be saying 「必要」by itself rather than 「必要がある」?

How about this, to see if I'm still thinking of mono/mon correctly.
あなたは出かけてはいけない。まだ夕食を食べないもん。
What I tried to say: "You mustn't leave. You haven't eaten dinner yet."

Toritoribe · 19 Oct 2012

Yes, you use もの/もん correctly.

必要がある a bit more written-language-like or formal than 必要だ.

To include a nuance of warning, 出かけちゃいけないよ/だめだよ。まだ夕食食べてないじゃない/じゃん。 sounds more natural to me. If it's "I won't leave, since I haven't eaten dinner yet", you can use 出かけないよ。まだ夕食/晩御飯食べてないもん.

Rei Yahya · 19 Oct 2012

Thank you!

'dekakechau' I assume derived from 'dekakete shimau' to imply that going out would be a bad idea and lead to bad consequences?
What is the effect of 'janai' or 'jan' in there?
'tabete nai' derived from 'tabete iru', present progressive, does 'tabete nai' translate more into 'haven't eaten' or 'is not eating'?

Toritoribe · 19 Oct 2012

Not でかけちゃう but でかけちゃ（＝でかけては）.

じゃない/じゃん is used to point out something in this case.
e.g.
そこにあるじゃない/じゃん。
You see, that's there.

まだ～て（い）ない means "haven't done yet".

Rei Yahya · 20 Oct 2012

Toritoribe said:
Not でかけちゃう but でかけちゃ（＝でかけては）.

じゃない/じゃん is used to point out something in this case.
e.g.
そこにあるじゃない/じゃん。
You see, that's there.

まだ～て（い）ない means "haven't done yet".

「出かけちゃ」を見たことがありません。☝ Is there a special reason for it being 'cha' as opposed to 'te wa', or is it just colloquial? So it could be said, 'You can't eat here, this is a classroom!', 「ここで食べちゃだめだよ！ここは教室だもん。」

Thank you for your explanation of janai, as well as the 'mada ~te inai' form.

Elizabeth · 20 Oct 2012

Toritoribe said:
If it's "I won't leave, since I haven't eaten dinner yet", you can use 出かけないよ。まだ夕食/晩御飯食べてないもん.

Or as a conjunctive particle (Mada yuushoku tabetenai mono (de), dekakenai (yo/wa)) which I think is exactly similar. :?

Rei Yahya · 20 Oct 2012

Elizabeth said:
Or as a conjunctive particle (Mada yuushoku tabetenai mono (de), dekakenai (yo/wa)) which I think is exactly similar. :?

What is the difference between saying まだ夕食食べてないもので and まだ夕食食べてないからだ/ので, which I've learned as the 'because/since' conjunctions?

Elizabeth · 20 Oct 2012

Rei Yahya said:
What is the difference between saying まだ夕食食べてないもので and まだ夕食食べてないからだ/ので, which I've learned as the 'because/since' conjunctions?

This could be way off (and probably is) but the expression もので（すから）」 sounds to me like an effort to sincerely apologize for the inconvenience or to emphasize that the reason being given is/was unavoidable. 。As a sentence ending particle when 「～だもの」 appears in isolation it could be interpreted as more overtly negative, complaining, childish etc. giving the impression of a mere excuse in self-defense or the speaker's lame attempt to justify an action or an opinion.

Angel Valis · 20 Oct 2012

Rei Yahya said:
「出かけちゃ」を見たことがありません。☝ Is there a special reason for it being 'cha' as opposed to 'te wa', or is it just colloquial?

ては / では is 書き言葉 (written language) and ちゃ / じゃ is 話し言葉 (spoken language). Therefore when spoken, "see you later" is じゃまた, while written is often ではまた.

Toritoribe · 20 Oct 2012

Rei Yahya said:
So it could be said, 'You can't eat here, this is a classroom!', 「ここで食べちゃだめだよ！ここは教室だもん。」

Yes. Another option is ここ教室だよ.

Rei Yahya · 21 Oct 2012

Elizabeth said:
This could be way off (and probably is) but the expression もので（すから）」 sounds to me like an effort to sincerely apologize for the inconvenience or to emphasize that the reason being given is/was unavoidable. 。As a sentence ending particle when 「～だもの」 appears in isolation it could be interpreted as more overtly negative, complaining, childish etc. giving the impression of a mere excuse in self-defense or the speaker's lame attempt to justify an action or an opinion.

Childish, yes, my book seems to imply that with this example sentence: ねえ、お母さん、あのおもちゃ買ってよ。僕どうしても欲しいんだもの。It's defined as 'expressing dissatisfaction or desire' at the end of a sentence.

So, the difference in tone...
刺身注文しないよ。食べられませんから。"I'm not ordering sashimi because I can't eat it."
刺身が欲しくないよ、大嫌いもの！ "I don't want sashimi, because I hate it!"
Do these examples give the tone you're talking about? Were I to say 'taberaremasen mono de', would it sound like an apology, 'I'm so sorry that I can't eat it'? Sorry to hit you with so many small things at once.

Also, that's interesting on the subject of 書き言葉 and 話し言葉. Is it strange, then, to type to a friend 「じゃ、またあとで」, rather than 「では、またあとで」? Also, then, is it that 'You mustn't order sashimi' in kakikotoba would for sure be 刺身を注文してはいけません and in hanashikotoba it would for sure be 刺身注文しちゃいけない?

Elizabeth · 26 Oct 2012

Rei Yahya said:
Childish, yes, my book seems to imply that with this example sentence: ねえ、お母さん、あのおもちゃ買ってよ。僕どうしても欲しいんだもの。It's defined as 'expressing dissatisfaction or desire' at the end of a sentence.

So, the difference in tone...
刺身注文しないよ。食べられませんから。"I'm not ordering sashimi because I can't eat it."
刺身が欲しくないよ、大嫌いもの！ "I don't want sashimi, because I hate it!"
Do these examples give the tone you're talking about? Were I to say 'taberaremasen mono de', would it sound like an apology, 'I'm so sorry that I can't eat it'? Sorry to hit you with so many small things at once.

Sorry I haven't been back since the weekend...:sorry: but first of all, did you see 大嫌いもの！ someplace ? It sounds highly unnatural to me. 大嫌いなものです、大嫌いだから or だい嫌いなものですから・だから maybe ?

１．刺身注文しないよ。食べられないから。 (or ので） seems best in this situation.

Elizabeth · 27 Oct 2012

Also, then, is it that 'You mustn't order sashimi' in kakikotoba would for sure be 刺身を注文してはいけません and in hanashikotoba it would for sure be 刺身注文しちゃいけない?

I'm sure you are already familiar with any number of 'substitute' or 'replacement' (or, more common) phrases for these expressions that give the same sense of restriction or prohibition, so for sure ちゃ 'belongs' to colloquial Japanese but there isn't an exactness like ちゃいけない is the only thing you can say in daily conversation.

Rei Yahya said:
Also, that's interesting on the subject of 書き言葉 and 話し言葉. Is it strange, then, to type to a friend 「じゃ、またあとで」, rather than 「では、またあとで」?"

The non-colloquial, non slang standard "written language" I believe Angel was referring to is not necessarily anything on paper but what is suitable for business-related situations where a conventional, formal style is required (academic, newspapers, official material...). またね / じゃ~~またね are better than じゃ、またあとで, by the way, and can be acceptable in both spoken Informal(=casual) as well as the more friendly or intimate texted equivalent (blogs, personal letters, web sites....etc ).

ところで、刺身注文しないよ。は友達同士の会話。ですね。。。。
食べられないもので,、食べられないものだから・ですから、はオフィシャルな言い方だと思います。

もの

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Elizabeth

先輩

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Elizabeth

先輩

Angel Valis

黒川

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Similar threads