What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
606
Reaction score
5
Re: 前菜でも頼みましょうか?
Shall we order an appetizer?
Could you please tell me what で does grammatically in the above sentence? I'm expecting either 前菜頼みましょうか or 前菜頼みましょうか.
I've found from a dictionary that でも can mean "as well" or "even". I'm not sure.

ヒマラヤは世界一番大きい山で、インドにあります。
The Himalayas, the worlds largest mountains, are in the country of India.
I'm expecting 世界に in the sentence above while で is for action verb. It seems to me that it is also applicable for working with adjective. Is it correct?
By the way is 大きな山 the same as 大きい山 in this case?
 
Joined
5 May 2013
Messages
880
Reaction score
351
It's -でも not で+も, and it means "- or something".
  • 1〔…なりと〕

  • 明日にでも行きましょうかね
  • How about going tomorrow?
  • 待っている間よかったらその雑誌でも読んでいなさい
  • You can read that magazine, if you like, while you wait.
  • おじさんがお小遣いでもくれないかな
  • I wonder if my uncle won't give me some money or something.


ヒマラヤは世界一番大きい山で、インドにあります。
The Himalayas, the worlds largest mountains, are in the country of India.
I'm expecting 世界に in the sentence above while で is for action verb. It seems to me that it is also applicable for working with adjective. Is it correct?
I don't understand your question exactly, but ヒマラヤは世界で一番大きい山 is correct, 世界に一番 would not be.

で is used this way for a meaning like "among" (a set of things) or "within" (a container of things) like クラスで一番人気 or 兄弟の中で最も背が高い



By the way is 大きな山 the same as 大きい山 in this case?
Yes.
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
606
Reaction score
5
なりと
I can see from a dictionary that なりmeans "or something" but not too sure what なりと means here.

明日にでも
So this means "tomorrow or some day", I guess.

読んでいなさい
I believe this is literally 読んでいる + なさい, a progressive form of 読む even though the translation is not done accordingly but perhaps naturally.
While we're at it, could I ask you a question off-topic? "なさい" is used, for example, when a mother is scolding her child or when a teacher wants a delinquent student to pay attention. Why would one need to use「なさい」 being a special honorific conjugation of 「する」for parent to children and teacher to students?

I don't understand your question exactly
My bad! I was expecting 世界に in the sentence because I thought it meant "in the world". I had learnt that で for the same meaning only goes with the action verb. Anyway your guessing was correct and you have answered my question. I have never specifically learnt で for such purpose. Perhaps I had but forgotten. I thank you for your kindness and patience with me.
 
Joined
5 May 2013
Messages
880
Reaction score
351
Oh, I dropped the link when I was citing that entry:

I can see from a dictionary that なりmeans "or something" but not too sure what なりと means here.
It also means "or something" here. That's a dictionary entry -- it's just being given as the definition of でも. If you're not familiar with (and it's much less common than でも so there's no reason you would be) then don't worry about it.

So this means "tomorrow or some day", I guess.
Yes.
明日にでも行きましょうかね Shall we go tomorrow (or sometime)?

待っている間よかったらその雑誌でも読んでいなさい Why don't you read that magazine or something while we wait.
I believe this is literally 読んでいる + なさい, a progressive form of 読む even though the translation is not done accordingly but perhaps naturally.
Yes.

"なさい" is used, for example, when a mother is scolding her child or when a teacher wants a delinquent student to pay attention. Why would one need to use「なさい」 being a special honorific conjugation of 「する」for parent to children and teacher to students?

なさい isn't a conjugation of する, but rather a conjugation of an alternative honorific word なさる. Not quite the same thing.

Using the honorific in an imperative form softens imperative into a request, I think? (Even though it's quite a stern request and nearly imperative). It's also possible なする has shifted in meaning, I'm not quite sure.

It's a bit odd, but there are a lot of bits of Japanese where an expression was formed at a time when the language was used differently, and then that expression was carried intact into modern Japanese where it doesn't quite match the regular rules. I believe なさい is one of those, and I don't normally think of it as being a conjugation of なさる so much as a grammar derived from なさる.


I was expecting 世界に in the sentence because I thought it meant "in the world".
It does in some contexts. Unfortunately, Japanese particles and English prepositions don't always line up neatly. It does take some getting used to.
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
606
Reaction score
5
If you're not familiar with (and it's much less common than でも so there's no reason you would be) then don't worry about it.
Thanks I don't mind at all. There're so much to learn. It's easier to remember a new word when it associates an old one.


なさい isn't a conjugation of する, but rather a conjugation of an alternative honorific word なさる.
I got the statement of 「なさい」 is a special honorific conjugation of 「する」from Making requests and asking for favors - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide. Perhaps なさる is the honorific form of する.
 
Joined
5 May 2013
Messages
880
Reaction score
351
Perhaps なさる is the honorific form of する.
Yes, that's correct. While なさい does serve as a firm request replacement for する, it's skipping a step to call it a conjugation of する.
なさる replaces する, and then なさる conjugates to なさい.

I suppose Tae Kim was trying to make things easier since you won't often see なさる except in ごめんなさい and ~なさい requests... but it isn't accurate, and なさる is still used as a regular verb in honorific (sonkeigo) so you should know about it. You don't really need to know how to use it until and unless you expect to have very formal interactions with Japanese people (e.g. speaking to business clients in Japanese), but you should know what it means when you hear it at an intermediate level.
 
Top Bottom