Duolingo Method

[grandta14]

A while ago I started trying to use Duolingo's site for learning English from Japanese, and though after the first basic courses the difficulty ramped up significantly, I very muched liked the way that I learned from it.
The basic premise for learning any language on Duolingo is that you are either given a sentence in your native language and are told to translate it into the language you are learning, or you are give a sentence in a foreign language and are told to translate it into your native language.
The reason that this method was so effective for me was that in order to translate from Japanese, I had to learn what the kanji meant, forcing me to make a mental association, and when I translated from English to Japanese, I had to know the readings of the kanji in addition to knowing what the kanji meant, further cementing the association as well as teaching me the pronunciation.
The issue with Duolingo's course, though, is that after the basic courses are completed, the site assumes that you already know conversational Japanese (as the site was intended for native Japanese speakers), which creates an extreme learning curve.
Since the site was presented in Japanese, I was required to use external resources, namely Wakan and web searches, for anything (grammar, readings, etc.) that I didn't understand; I have no issues with this method, I just thought that I should mention that external resources are necessary when learning this way.

Everything before this was just preface; the primary reason that I started this thread was to ask if anyone knew of any other resources that would allow me to learn using a method similar to this.


If anyone is interested in checking out Duolingo to see what I'm talking about, it can be accessed here: Learn a language for free
Keep in mind that you will have to change your language; I don't know what options you have while setting it up, but once you are set up, you can access the lessons I referred to by going to Settings from your username at the top, clicking Language at the right, then selecting 「英語を学びたいです（日本語を知ってます）」.

 

[nekojita]

Translation from language A to language B is usually a poor method of learning to use either A or B. Mostly this is because there is seldom a single correct translation (translator, traitor, as the saying goes), and because subtleties in a language are often simply untranslatable (e.g. 学校に行く vs 学校に行きます - no real change in meaning but shouldn't be treated as interchangeable).

You didn't come back to reply to this thread
.

If 私達は男たちですか genuinely was considered "correct" as an answer to translate "Are we men?", then I don't think I could recommend the site. In that thread, which was about a month ago, you were having issues with basic grammar points like plain form versus ます and 待ちます vs. 待っています - have you sorted these out? Since a course in English for Japanese natives will assume such things as basic knowledge (no native speaker would mix them up), you would have to use a separate source aimed at teaching Japanese to English speakers for the grammar - which then begs the question of why you wouldn't use something aimed at teaching Japanese to English speakers in the first place.

 

[grandta14]

Translation from language A to language B is usually a poor method of learning to use either A or B. Mostly this is because there is seldom a single correct translation (translator, traitor, as the saying goes), and because subtleties in a language are often simply untranslatable (e.g. ﾅ?wﾂ校窶堙可行窶堋ｭ vs ﾅ?wﾂ校窶堙可行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷ - no real change in meaning but shouldn't be treated as interchangeable).

You didn't come back to reply to this thread
.

If ﾅｽ窶樞?傳窶堙坂?冕窶堋ｽ窶堋ｿ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩ genuinely was considered "correct" as an answer to translate "Are we men?", then I don't think I could recommend the site. In that thread, which was about a month ago, you were having issues with basic grammar points like plain form versus 窶堙懌?堋ｷ and 窶佚停?堋ｿ窶堙懌?堋ｷ vs. 窶佚停?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ - have you sorted these out? Since a course in English for Japanese natives will assume such things as basic knowledge (no native speaker would mix them up), you would have to use a separate source aimed at teaching Japanese to English speakers for the grammar - which then begs the question of why you wouldn't use something aimed at teaching Japanese to English speakers in the first place.

(I'm short on time currently; I may come back later with a more in-depth response)
I would rather use a site dedicated to teaching Japanese to English speakers, though what I was asking for was a site that used a method like this for reinforcement. Most of the sites I've used either present me with random words within a set proficiency level, or just simply present new words and tells me to look them up in a dictionary. The problem with this is that I retain very few of the words, and I learn nothing about grammar.
(I may be leaving out something I meant to say, but if I realise that later, I'll post it then)

 

[nekojita]

I gave you a link in the other thread to Erin's Challenge, which is a very good beginner-focused site run by the Japan Foundation who actually know what they're doing. You should check it out.

 

[grandta14]

I gave you a link in the other thread to Erin's Challenge, which is a very good beginner-focused site run by the Japan Foundation who actually know what they're doing. You should check it out.

Perhaps I was using the site wrong, but it seemed to me like I was presented with information in bulk, and was then given reviews to analyse a small part of that information (though, since the analysis was presented primarily in Japanese, I still missed inormation). I may be using the site incorrectly, or it may just not fit my learning style.
Could you perhaps give some tips to using the site effectively? Please keep in mind though that I am at the level of an absolute beginner; the furthest extent of my learning so far is the ability to read kana and to recognise a few random words.

 

[nekojita]

If you find the initial skit too much to handle, I would a) make sure the site is on kana, b) start with the "key phrases" section, go to "explanation and example sentences" (e.g. here), then watch the "key phrases" skit, then go back to the first skit or the manga version of it. You can always switch to all kana and add English.

They do put some more advanced things in even the beginner skits to add colour; don't worry if some if it goes over your head. They actually say this. It isn't intended for "zero" beginners, granted, but you started this thread saying you'd been learning from a source meant for native speakers that assumes you know casual spoken language, and found it effective...

 

[grandta14]

If you find the initial skit too much to handle, I would a) make sure the site is on kana, b) start with the "key phrases" section, go to "explanation and example sentences" (e.g. here), then watch the "key phrases" skit, then go back to the first skit or the manga version of it. You can always switch to all kana and add English.

They do put some more advanced things in even the beginner skits to add colour; don't worry if some if it goes over your head. They actually say this. It isn't intended for "zero" beginners, granted, but you started this thread saying you'd been learning from a source meant for native speakers that assumes you know casual spoken language, and found it effective...

Thanks, I'll try your advice with Erin's Challenge.
On Duolingo, I was only able to use Basic 1 and Basic 2 courses effectively; I was unable to proceed past the third course, 'Phrases', without studying from a different source to learn basic Japanese skills. Perhaps once I've developed my skills further, Duolingo can be an effective learning aid.

Taking another look at Erin's Challenge, these are some of the problems that I had with it (in no particular order):
1. When I watch a skit, I will naturally include the English subtitles, so that I have an idea of what is being said, though when this is done, there are two problems: it becomes difficult to read the English and associate it with the words spoken and, even with the Japanese displayed as text, without prior foundation in Japanese grammar, I find it difficult to associate the English phrases with their Japanese counterparts.
2. The review questions, written in English, are not helpful as I needed English subtitles to follow the skit.
3. The Japanese writings are available either with kanji or only kana, not both (furigana). While kanji and kana sentences can be displayed simultaneously, the kana sentences are displayed in the same font size as the kanji sentences, which can cause the kanji and its reading to be seperated in a way that makes it difficult to connect them on the fly.

Regardless of these criticisms, I will try Erin's Challenge again, though I worry that I will still encounter these issues as a metaphorical 'brick wall'.

The reason that I found the Duolingo method effective to a point is that it provided applied practice. While reading, hearing, and learning about the language may help to a point, there will be very little retention (at least in my case) if there is no way to apply my learnings.There are a number of ways to apply language learning, translation being one. Even if I learn the concepts elsewhere, what I am looking for is a site that provide applied review.

 

[Mike Cash]

You may find it beneficial....however distasteful....to actually spend a few short hours studying Japanese grammar.

 

[grandta14]

You may find it beneficial....however distasteful....to actually spend a few short hours studying Japanese grammar.

I have a basic grasp on Japanese grammar, but with very little vocabulary knowledge, I have no way to root my knowledge of the grammar in the language. At least with basic sentences, if I know the vocabulary, I can potentially formulate a sentence with proper grammar or understand a given sentence. I just can't do that if I don't know what words to use.

 

[Toritoribe]

What is your translation of "I just can't do that if I don't know what words to use.", for instance? You know all the Japanese words you should use in this sentence, right?

 

[grandta14]

What is your translation of "I just can't do that if I don't know what words to use.", for instance? You know all the Japanese words you should use in this sentence, right?

There are several concepts and words in that sentence that I haven't yet learned, such as the conditional and the use of the word 'just'. However, after some research, I came up with this: 「私は言葉を知りませんならそんなことできません。」
I'm sure that there are plenty of errors in this sentence, and I still don't know what to do with 'just'.
But this is a good example of applied practice. I was given a task that wasn't too far beyond my skill, which I had the means to complete; completing increased my skill and knowledge. However much I read about something, it won't take root until I do something with it.

 

[Mike Cash]

You may find it beneficial....however distasteful....to actually spend a few short hours studying Japanese grammar.

 

[grandta14]

You may find it beneficial....however distasteful....to actually spend a few short hours studying Japanese grammar.

However much I read about something, it won't take root until I do something with it.

This is grammar study. It's not as though I don't use sites for learning Japanese; when I do, I often encounter the issues I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Also, criticism without correction is of little use. What is wrong with my translation? Since I posed it as what I though was at least a semi-accurate translation, it would be apparent that I was unaware of any significant grammatical errors; the ignorance of one's own ignorance results in the stagnation of his learning.

 

[Mike Cash]

It sounds more like "reverse engineering" than "grammar study".

 

[grandta14]

It sounds more like "reverse engineering" than "grammar study".

That actually does sound like an accurate analogy to my learning method. Regardless of the subject (computers, electronics, mechanics, maths, languages), this is the method I've used all my life to learn effectively. Even with book study, I read the concept, apply it, and ask someone more knowledgable if there is any way I can improve on my application.

 

[Mike Cash]

I'll drop you a hint....the conditional isn't appropriate. But if you do want to use the conditional, that's not the conditional to use.

 

[grandta14]

I'll drop you a hint....the conditional isn't appropriate. But if you do want to use the conditional, that's not the conditional to use.

Perhaps 「私は言葉を知りませんばそんなことできません。」 then?
Also, why is a conditional inappropriate, and how might I form the sentence without a conditional?
I have a few more specific questions. First, is the negative of shiru appropriate? Second, since the negative 知りません does not end in a 'u' sound, is any conjugation necessary for this conditional?

EDIT: I should note that I used this page for learing about conditionals: Conditionals – Learn Japanese

 

[Mike Cash]

Wouldn't it go against your reverse engineering method for me to answer your questions?

 

[grandta14]

With the physical analogue to reverse engineering, when I try to apply a concept, I can see whether the concept I learned was correct or not, and if it wasn't, I can analyse the source and the outcome of my attempt to find where my initial analysis was incorrect. When working with language though, I can't just formulate a sentence and know if something is wrong with it; I have to pose the sentence to someone familiar with the language in order to identify errors. Even if the person can't or is unwilling to help me correct the errors, I can still find solutions to the errors if I know that they exist and what they are. Posing the sentence to someone versed in the language is analogous to testing the concept learnt from reverse engineering.

 

[FinancialWar]

Nothing wrong with reverse engineering, Chinese people do it all the time. That's we China is the fastest growing economy.

 

[Mike Cash]

Nothing wrong with reverse engineering, Chinese people do it all the time. That's we China is the fastest growing economy.

There is little point to reverse engineering things for which the manuals and blueprints are commonly available.

 

[Toritoribe]

this is a good example of applied practice

I, too, think this is a good example how important to use textbooks is. I second Mike-san in this point. Conditional forms are one of the hardest things to grasp in Japanese grammar for non-native learners, I think. Decent grammar books always have good explanation about the difference among なら, たら, ば or と conditionals, including how to conjugate verbs/adjectives preceding these conditional suffixes. Your answer shows that it's not helpful for you to read Tae Kim's site, even though the site is relatively good. And I believe this is the problem of the grammar, not vocabulary. (Or, do you think complex sentences are too complicated for you?)

（ただ）～だけです is used for "just" in this case, but you also missed "to use" in your translation.

 

[nekojita]

lang-8.com is a suitable place to practice writing and get feedback (although a textbook with grammar drills, for example see the Workbook examples from Genki would be of a huge help to you).

 

[Kraise]

I know posting here might make The Op a Little bit confused but regarding なら、as in "謝罪というのなら,会います", is it possible to reproduce it in(something like) "知らないのなら、使えない"?

Edit: Now, it feels extremely unlikely to me. I'd pick to or tara for this anyway

 

[nekojita]

~ば does work here, except that 知りませんば isn't a correct conjugation (hint: you need to start from 知らない not 知りません).