ga, o, and wa

[YamaArashi]

When should ga, o, and wa (particles) be used?

In one book, (Japanese Phrases) it suggests that if I wanted to say "Mary invited John" I would say:
Mari ga Jon o sasotta.
And when this book talks about wa, if I used wa in this sentence:
Mari wa Jon sasotta.
It would mean:
As for Mary, she invited John.
but
In another book, (Japanese Step by Step) it says nothing about ga and o, but exclusively uses wa:
Mari wa Jon sasotta.
It says this means:
Mary invited John.

When (if at all) should I use either of these?

 

[nice gaijin]

It really depends on the emphasis; wa and ga mark different elements in a sentence, and while they are often interchangeable, it doesn't mean that they are the same. 'wo/o' marks a direct object, and is unrelated to whether 'wa' or 'ga' are used.

Here are some related threads:
Wa and Ga explanation webpage? | Japan Forum
Some basic Grammar help needed | Japan Forum

and probably the most relevant: Language - Japanese Grammar - Part 1 | Japan Forum

 

[Elizabeth]

When should ga, o, and wa (particles) be used?
In one book, (Japanese Phrases) it suggests that if I wanted to say "Mary invited John" I would say:
Mari ga Jon o sasotta.

If this is clearly what it "suggests" in the absence of any other context, I would look into another book. Also, "o" is part of a formal grammar and it appears like these were from chapters for learning a more casual style ?

 

[YamaArashi]

So wa marks a topic and ga marks the actual subject? Would this be correct:
Anata ga kirei desu
meaning You are pretty
And another thing, my book says you hardly ever say the word anata meaning you. What?
Japanese is confusing. Or maybe it's just my book that makes it confusing.
What do you think is more important to learn at first, simple grammar or lots of vocabulary?

 

[nice gaijin]

well, a huge vocabulary doesn't mean much if you can't string together a simple sentence, but obviously you can't concentrate solely on one and not the other.

as for anata, pronouns like "you" aren't used in Japanese as much as in English. The safe bet is to go with the person's name+san, or skip the pronoun altogether if it's clear whom you are talking about.

 

[Elizabeth]

So wa marks a topic and ga marks the actual subject? Would this be correct:
Anata ga kirei desu
meaning You are pretty

It's safest to use "wa" talking about or to a person being "kirei".

 

[YamaArashi]

It's safest to use "wa" talking about or to a person being "kirei".

What for? And thanks for everyone's help.

 

[undrentide]

What for? And thanks for everyone's help.

Ga is to emphasize/focus its preceeding word, that's the difference from wa.

So in normal speech when you just want to say "you are cute", you should use wa;
anata wa kirei (desu).
If she's surprised and asked "dare ga? (who?)" then you can say;
anata ga kirei (desu). (It is YOU who is cute).

 

[Elizabeth]

Ga is to emphasize/focus its preceeding word, that's the difference from wa.
So in normal speech when you just want to say "you are cute", you should use wa;
anata wa kirei (desu).
If she's surprised and asked "dare ga? (who?)" then you can say;
anata ga kirei (desu). (It is YOU who is cute).

Can 'anata ga kirei' also sometimes include the idea of "for a short time only, but not permanently" ?

In the same way that "Tsuki/hana ga kirei" ! is a natural response to the particular beauty a moon/flowers have right now, in this moment, but it isn't so always or expected to be a regular condition...

 

[epigene]

Can 'anata ga kirei' also sometimes include the idea of "for a short time only, but not permanently" ?
In the same way that "Tsuki/hana ga kirei" ! is a natural response to the particular beauty a moon/flowers have right now, in this moment, but it isn't so always or expected to be a regular condition...

I agree with you on the second paragraph, but don't you think using "anata ga kirei" for a short time only is actually insulting?

Seriously, I can't think of cases of using "anata ga kirei" other than to mean "you are beautiful vis-a-vis others."

 

[Toritoribe]

As for a "part" of a person, you NEVER use the particle "wa", when you praise someone.

その髪形はかわいい。
Sono kamigata wa kawaii.

顔はきれい。
Kao wa kirei.

今日の服はかっこいい。
Kyou no huku wa kakko ii.

This "wa" often implies "only". So these sentenses connote something like

前の髪形はかわいくなかった。
Mae no kamigata wa kawaikunakatta.

顔以外はきれいじゃない。
Kao igai wa kireijanai.

昨日の服はかっこよくなかった。
Kinou no huku wa kakko yokunakatta.

It could be the cause of trouble. The best way in this case is NOT to use any particles.

その髪型、かわいいね。
Sono kamigata, kawaii ne.

Probably no one will be angry with this words.

 

[Elizabeth]

I agree with you on the second paragraph, but don't you think using "anata ga kirei" for a short time only is actually insulting?

Luckily being a girl.... but I were forced to say anything...MAYBE 今日もきれいだね。 OR 今日は実にきれいだね if she was all dressed up looking for a compliment.

 

[YamaArashi]

Elizabeth I just translated your two sentences from Japanese to English (because... shamefully I can't read it) with babel fish and this is what it showed:

Don't you think? also today is clean. Don't you think? today is truly clean.

So that would be like:
"Wow honey, you just look so clean today!"

Could you perhaps repost that in Romaji for me so I can see the words you are using. And why when she was all dressed up? And I am still in the dark about regular usage. How about just "Kirei desu" without any particles and then if she says dare ga? then "Anata ga kirei desu".

Yes?

 

[nice gaijin]

kirei also means pretty/beautiful, you should know from the context whether they're saying something is beautiful or clean.

 

[Kyle]

I think I remember seeing somewhere that が is used when the thing you are talking about is new to the conversation

i.e
今日はとっても暑いですね？でも、あなたがきれいですよ！
kyou ha tottemo atsui desune? demo, anata GA kirei desuyo!
Today is very hot, isn't it? But, you are pretty!
(I know its very random and a bad example, but go with it haha.)

This shows that they were not talk about here, they were talking about the weather. Then he says that she looks pretty, entering her into the conversation using "ga."

-------------------------

Then if they are already on the topic of "her," they would use "wa."

i.e.
あなたの靴は古そう。でも、あなたの顔はきれいですよ！
anata no kutsu ha furusou. demo, anata no kao ha kirei desuyo!
Your shoes look old, but you face is pretty!
(Lol, another bad example. But you get the point.)

Not sure if what I heard is correct, or even if the sentences I have made are grammatically correct, so if you want to correct me. I have no objections haha.

 

[Toritoribe]

I think I remember seeing somewhere that が is used when the thing you are talking about is new to the conversation

i.e
今日はとっても暑いですね？でも、あなたがきれいですよ！
kyou ha tottemo atsui desune? demo, anata GA kirei desuyo!
Today is very hot, isn't it? But, you are pretty!
(I know its very random and a bad example, but go with it haha.)

This shows that they were not talk about here, they were talking about the weather. Then he says that she looks pretty, entering her into the conversation using "ga."

-------------------------

Then if they are already on the topic of "her," they would use "wa."

i.e.
あなたの靴は古そう。でも、あなたの顔はきれいですよ！
anata no kutsu ha furusou. demo, anata no kao ha kirei desuyo!
Your shoes look old, but you face is pretty!
(Lol, another bad example. But you get the point.)

Not sure if what I heard is correct, or even if the sentences I have made are grammatically correct, so if you want to correct me. I have no objections haha.

You might be better to read whole this thread carefully, especially the linked pages on nice gaijin's post, I'm afraid...

 

[Elizabeth]

I think I remember seeing somewhere that が is used when the thing you are talking about is new to the conversation.

That's a rule applied more as you would begin introducting a new character in a composition, story, narration, etc. For example, 去年、友達がこの内に泊まりました。。。。 is like "last year, there was A friend who stayed in this house." Later mentions may use は (THE friend) to avoid repeating what is already already established through context -- namely that there is a friend and that friend has stayed in this house etc.

 

[Kyle]

You might be better to read whole this thread carefully, especially the linked pages on nice gaijin's post, I'm afraid...

No no, I think you have me misunderstood. I was just checking to see if what I heard about the rule I explained was right. Just wanted to know for my own sake.

 

[Toritoribe]

So the answer would be simple.

I think I remember seeing somewhere that が is used when the thing you are talking about is new to the conversation
-------------------------
Then if they are already on the topic of "her," they would use "wa."

No. It's far more complicated. Please refer to the linked pages...

 

[Kyle]

So the answer would be simple.
No. It's far more complicated. Please refer to the linked pages...

ああ、すみません！あんたは輪からないよ！
(Oh, excuse me! I didn't understand you!) Let me know if that's wrong. I'm trying to type almost everything in Japanese just to get the feel for it.

I guess I must have been misunderstanding you haha. I'll definitely look at the linked pages!

 

[Toritoribe]

ああ、すみません！あんたは輪からないよ！
(Oh, excuse me! I didn't understand you!) Let me know if that's wrong. I'm trying to type almost everything in Japanese just to get the feel for it.

That trial no doubt contributes to learning Japanese.
However, you'd better to be more careful to use an informal/a rude form while you can't grasp its nuance.

あんたがわからないよ！/あんたの言ってることがわからないよ！ (*輪 means a ring)

This sentence could have the nuance to pick a fight with the person to talk to. (Also, あんたはわからないよ would sound like あんたにはわからないよ; "you can't understand what I'm saying.")

おっしゃっていることがよくわからなかったんです。 (おっしゃって; the honorific form of 言って)
言っていることがよくわからなかったんです。
or more simply
よくわからなかったんです。

These might more suit for the context.

Back to the topic, it's REALLY tough to understand the particles issue such like the difference between は and が. So, 頑張ってください！

 

[Elizabeth]

ああ、すみません！あんたは輪からないよ！
(Oh, excuse me! I didn't understand you!) Let me know if that's wrong. I'm trying to type almost everything in Japanese just to get the feel for it.
I guess I must have been misunderstanding you haha. I'll definitely look at the linked pages!

「あんた」という言い方はやめた方が無難でしょう。
It could be just a typo. But I also think it's safer if you stop using "anta."

「あんた」「お前」は、相手を大切に思う感じがありません。
Anta and omae make the people you're talking to feel not very important.


If what you were trying to say to Toritoribe-san was "I misunderstood what you said" (言っていることを) 誤解してしまってごめんなさい。is good.

 

[Kyle]

Oops! I'm really sorry for what I have said. I didn't mean あんた、 I meant あなた so that was a typo and a really bad one I have found out.

And for some of the things that you say, could you put the hiragana in parenthesis next to some of the kanji you use, because it is still hard for me to understand especially if I don't know the meaning of the used kanji. Maybe trying to read the Kanji is making me better? I don't know, so just let me know if this is a better way of learning.

And Elizabeth got it right I meant to say, "誤解してしまってごめんなさい." I just wanted to say that I misunderstood you. And I guess my Japanese stupidity makes me come off like a jerk sometimes and that's not what I want to sound like. I'm not trying to be rude/disrespectful and I appreciate you guys taking the time out to help me!

So for future mess-ups I apologize!

ごめんなさい！

 

[Elizabeth]

Oops! I'm really sorry for what I have said. I didn't mean あんた、 I meant あなた so that was a typo and a really bad one I have found out.

And for some of the things that you say, could you put the hiragana in parenthesis next to some of the kanji you use, because it is still hard for me to understand especially if I don't know the meaning of the used kanji. Maybe trying to read the Kanji is making me better? I don't know, so just let me know if this is a better way of learning.

はい、わかりました。これからも、漢字（かんじ）にひらがなをつけます。

Got it. And starting now, I will *try to remember to* attach hiragana to all my kanji...

OR

つけないほうが勉強（べんきょう）になりたければ、言って（いって）くださいね。

So if you don't want to study that way, let me know that, too.


他（ほか）に、 質問（しつもん）があれば、気軽（きがる）に聞いて（きいて）くださいね。

Any other questions....by all means never be one who hesitates to ask !


心配（しんぱい）しないように。。。私（わたし）は手伝（てつだ）いしたいと思（おも）います。



自分（じぶん）の勉強（べんきょう）不足（ぶそく）を感じます（かんじます）。
私の勉強法（べんきょうほう）もあまり効果(こうか）がないようですけど。。。

It isn't my place to judge whatever study methods you adopt or recommend one over the other. It's an individual decision. Besides, I often feel mine are all equally deficient.

 

[Kyle]

ELIZABETHさん！ ありがとうございます！ あなたはすごいよ！ ひりがなとなり漢字は読むと習うをとっても易しい。 何間、日本語を勉強するか？あなたはとくいよ！一日、私の日本語は流暢に成る。でも、今で私は流暢所か。

I know there are probably many mistakes in there that you guys will fix, but Im trying new sentence structures so my sentences do not sound so juvenile if you know what I mean. Here's what it is supposed to say:

"Elizabeth, thank you! You're amazing! Hiragana next to the kanji makes it much easier to read and learn! How long have you been studying Japanese? You're very good! One day my Japanese will become fluent, but right now I am far from it."

Again I know there will be mistakes. But I greatly appreciate what you guys are doing for us less talented 日本語 speakers/writers.

And Elizabeth if by any chance you want to respond to my comments directed towards you could you do the kanji thing and then NOT translate it and let me have a shot at what you say. I think that will also help me out. But if you don't want to answer then that is fine as well.

Once again, thank you for what you guys do!

じゃ、また！