nishiteha kuseni and warini

[Emoni]

The topic pretty much says it all. I'm studying with a fairly good over all 2kyuu study book, but the only problem is that it lumps nishiteha warini, and kuseni all together and explains them very poorly. Actually, it doesn't explain them at all. I've checked jgram.org but I haven't found much more of an explanation of how they are different.

I don't suppose anyone knows how these suckers are different? Kuseni isn't too bad, it is more of an accusing tone, but the others...

 

[Elizabeth]

The topic pretty much says it all. I'm studying with a fairly good over all 2kyuu study book, but the only problem is that it lumps nishiteha warini, and kuseni all together and explains them very poorly. Actually, it doesn't explain them at all. I've checked jgram.org but I haven't found much more of an explanation of how they are different.
I don't suppose anyone knows how these suckers are different? Kuseni isn't too bad, it is more of an accusing tone, but the others...

Are you talking about a comparison, for example, between X にしては and Xの割には "for an X" that can be paraphrased as "considering the fact that it is an X。。。" there results a state/condition that different than the one normally expected ?

Simple sentences without a clear distinction in meaning the two:
彼は、子供にしてはとても背が高い。
彼は、子供の割にはとても背が高い。

これは日本のレストランのわりに、値段がやや高いですね。
これは日本のレストランにしては、値段がやや高いですね。



A rambling list of situations in which one or the other is commonly used:
1.年・年齢にしては、若く見える I would say 年(年齢。。。)の割には、若く見える
In case of doubt, reframe as 実際の年よりは.
歳にとしては is comparatively acceptable, if not natural, idiomatic Japanese ?

2. Cases in which a self-comparison is clearly implied will never take (君、彼。。。）の割りには、

Ex.: 君の割には、それがいいね。should be 君にしては、それがいいね。

3. にしては restricted to the use following nouns only
割りに links to the noun with の but can also come after verbs, adverbs or adjectives.

4.8月のわりには寒い。(Less encountered)
８月にとしては寒い。(Suggested )

 

[Emoni]

Sadly, I still don't see the difference between warini and nishiteha ... maybe this is just something my brain has some real trouble with or something.

 

[Charles Barkley]

わりに is more about relativity--something is relatively or comparatively ____. It often goes with age.

にしては is more about something is surprising/upsetting/impressive because it defies expectations.

For the 2kyuu test, you will not have a problem where everything is identical but you have to pick between these two.

More likely would be a problem that tests whether you know に is before しては and の is before わりに, or that にしては must come after nouns. Or a problem involving one of the two but not having both possibilities come up as an answer.

My suggestion is to learn the details that will help you on the test but not worry too much about those that won't. Those same details are the ones you can't fix just by memorization anyway--they take repeated exposure in different contexts. So just learn the general meanings, how the particles connect them to words, and what sentences they tend to appear in.

 

[Elizabeth]

わりに is more about relativity--something is relatively or comparatively ____. It often goes with age.

Yes, （の）わりに can be used to mean both

1．Comparatively/in proportion to (most common usage)
2. Considering something/taking into account X factor, the result is rather/fairly/considerably unexpected (this is what overlaps with にしては and is often found in certain set expressions, such as the age ones above)


Hope that helps. I really can't say any more without a concrete example to take apart. Sorry.

 

[Emoni]

Thanks, I think I get it now actually~

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks, I think I get it now actually~

That's good. Even it's more than what you need for the test.

Naturally くせに also has various contexts that can be similar to わりには、にしては、in a line like this : 「彼はお金持ちのくせにケチです。」


But mostly acts more like a critical, accusatory のに :

日本語で話そうといってたくせに英語ばかり話してます ね。

or here :

勉強するって言ったくせに漫画の本を読んでいたの？

 

[Toritoribe]

They, "ni shite wa" and "(no) warini (wa)", are basically interchangeable, but are not in some cases.

(as Elizabeth mentioned)
○彼にしては上出来だ。
×彼のわりに(は)上出来だ。

○性能のわりに(は)安い。
△性能にしては安い。(a bit awkward)
○この/その/あの性能にしては安い。

○下手なわりに(は)好きだ。
(This 下手 is not the noun but the stem of the na-adjective.)
○下手のわりに(は)好きだ。
×下手にしては好きだ。

○好きなわりに(は)下手だ。
○好きにしては下手だ。

It's hard to explain where the difference is from probably even for native Japanese speakers, in my opinion.

 

[Elizabeth]

They, "ni shite wa" and "(no) warini (wa)", are basically interchangeable, but are not in some cases.

Are there some, too, where "in shite wa" and "to shite wa" are almost the same sentence ? Except maybe that "to shite wa" is less direct, less rude or condescending....


Like 子供としては、彼は頭がいい。？
子供にしては、彼は頭がいい。

OR 今の病院としては、これは費用の安い病院だよ。
今の病院にしては、これは費用の安い病院だよ。

 

[Ashikaga]

にしては and としては are totally different in their meanings.

私としては、その文は間違っていると思います。
In my opinion, I believe that the sentence is incorrect.

その意見は、一個人の物としては問題はありませんが、 会社全体の意見として見ると、責任性に欠けるのではな いでしょうか。
There isn't a problem with the opinion as that of an individual person but if it is taken as that of the company as a whole, I believe it lacks responsibility.

As you can see, としては doesn't belong in the same group as にしては、のわりに、
のくせに、etc.

 

[Elizabeth]

にしては and としては are totally different in their meanings.
私としては、その文は間違っていると思います。
In my opinion, I believe that the sentence is incorrect.
その意見は、一個人の物としては問題はありませんが、会社全体の意見として見ると、責任性に欠けるのではないでしょうか。
There isn't a problem with the opinion as that of an individual person but if it is taken as that of the company as a whole, I believe it lacks responsibility.
As you can see, としては doesn't belong in the same group as にしては、のわりに、
のくせに、etc.

Yeah, I know most of the time it doesn't. What I was wondering about was sentences like the ones above, now repasted below. I'm not even sure they are natural, correct etc. It's just something I more or less made up typing along...

In English I was thinking the translation difference would be like this :


子供としては、彼は頭がいい。 (As children go, for a child ?), he is smart.
子供にしては、彼は頭がいい。 (He is smart, for a child that is).


OR 今の病院としては、これは費用の安い病院だよ。(As hospitals go, this one is a cheap hospital.

今の病院にしては、これは費用の安い病院だよ。(This one is cheap, for a hospital).

 

[Ashikaga]

Sorry but they are incorrect.

 

[Elizabeth]

Sorry but they are incorrect.

Oh, that's OK. Thanks for your prior examples. That was helpful.

I think I was mostly looking for a more polite way to say the "にしては"
ones.

And what I luckily found is an example from my dictionary : 男の子としては、なかなかおとなしい。(As boys go, he's quite good)....

So I guess that is correct, or maybe just as awkward as mine...lol.

 

[Ashikaga]

And what I luckily found is an example from my dictionary : 男の子としては、なかなかおとなしい。(As boys go, he's quite good)....

So I guess that is correct, or maybe just as awkward as mine...lol.

Yeah.... that sounds really awkward (and I still say it is incorrect) not to mention somewhat un-PC.

Also, I don't see anything impolite in saying にしては, either.