~emasu & ~raremasu

[Kriffix]

Hey everyone,
I'm quite confused about the 2 forms of "~emasu" and "~raremasu", maybe someone here could help me out please?
e.g
Ikemasu Oyogemasu Hanasemasu
Why does the "e" take place, as opposed to their regular masu forums?
Ikimasu Oyogimasu Hanashimasu

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that these forms deal with ability i.e
Ikemasu= can go
Ikemasen= can't go
Oyogemasu=can swim
Oyogemasen=can't swim

Is this correct?

Because i've also heard that "~raremasu" deals with ability too.
I.e
Taberaremasu= can eat
taberaremasen= can't eat
miraremasu= can see
miraremasen= can't see

(is it possible that both deal with ability and that the only difference is that one form deals with Ichidan whilst the other deals with Yodan?)
Can anyone help clear this up for me please?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Toritoribe]

is it possible that both deal with ability and that the only difference is that one form deals with Ichidan whilst the other deals with Yodan?

You got it. The term "go-dan verb" is commonly used in modern Japanese, though.

go-dan verb
釣る(tsuru; to fish) → 釣ります(tsurimasu)
釣れる(tsureru; to be able to fish) → 釣れます(tsuremasu)

ichi-dan verb
食べる(taberu; to eat) → 食べます(tabemasu)
食べられる(taberareru; to be able to eat) → 食べられます(taberaremasu)


Incidentally, areru-form of go-dan verb means "passive".
釣る(tsuru; to fish) → 釣ります(tsurimasu)
釣られる(tsurareru; to be fished) → 釣られます(tsuraremasu)

and rareru-form of ichi-dan verb also maens "passive".
食べられる(taberareru; to be able to eat/to be eaten)

僕はにんじんも食べられる。(Boku wa ninjin mo taberareru.)
I can eat a carrot too.

シマウマがライオンに食べられた。(Shimauma ga raion ni taberareta.)
The zebra was eaten by the lion.

As for 見る(miru), 見られる(mirareu) can have the meaning of "to be able to see", but another potential form 見える(mieru) is commonly used. 見られる(mirareu)is generally used as the passive/honorific form.

hope this helps

 

[Kirakira1232]

Thats right! Taberu and miru are ichidan doushi verbs (one step verbs) whereas oyogu and hanasu are go-dan doushi (5 step verbs). Which is why there is a difference when you conjugate them.

 

[Tomii515]

Isn't it also commen for the verbs that normally take ~rareru, to also take -eru?

見る → 見られる → 見れる
出る → 出られる → 出れる
来る → 来られる → 来れる

etc etc

right?

 

[Toritoribe]

Actually, that conjugations are commonly used in conversation. However, they, called ら抜き言葉(ra-nuki-kotoba), are assumed to be the grammatical incorrectness formally.
In conversation, ら抜き言葉 such like 見れる/来れる is used only as the potential form, and 見られる/来られる tends to be used as the passive/honorific form.

 

[Ashikaga]

Actually, that conjugations are commonly used in conversation. However, they, called ら抜き言葉(ra-nuki-kotoba), are assumed to be the grammatical incorrectness formally.
In conversation, ら抜き言葉 such like 見れる/来れる is used only as the potential form, and 見られる/来られる tends to be used as the passive/honorific form.

OMG OMG OMG! It drives me up the Great Wall Of China when I hear ppl say 見れる、食べれる、etc. Everytime I hear it I'm like, Nuh uh! That's totally wrong, Girlfriend! Like, OMG it makes you sound so uneducational and stuff. LMAO!!

 

[Tomii515]

hahaha

Well, I guess it possibly could be considered a type of slang then, ne? ;-)

Sometimes I'm like that in English, too xD Like when people say ain't and 'you is' or like 'you mad....' instead of 'you're very...' lol xD But then again, I can't say I don't use it sometimes. Although, i don't think i use ain't

 

[Toritoribe]

I PERSONALLY second you, ASHIKAGA-san.
言葉は変わって行きますけどねぇ。。。 *sigh*

 

[Ashikaga]

hahaha
Well, I guess it possibly could be considered a type of slang then, ne? ;-)

Well, the scary thing is that a lot of people don't even realise it is wrong. On more than one occasions, I have heard TV News reporters ( 女子アナ or young female announcers who work as assistants on TV variety shows and on rare occasions, read news ) use it. Like Toritribe san wrote, the language is constantly changing and maybe we should just go with the flow but this just sounds BAD.

 

[Tomii515]

I get what you mean. The same things happening to English. I think when people talk all ghetto, it sounds disgusting!!

But, I guess I just brought it up because obviously it's used in the language (and GENKI even teaches it xD But, it uses the correct way when giving exmaples etc etc. It was just a like "fyi" thing) lol

 

[LukeSettle]

言葉は変わって行きますけどねぇ。。。

Sorry this is off topic, but, does that mean

the language (or speech) keeps changing ne?

i was wondering what -tte/te ikimasu meant, and then it struck me when i saw ashikaga-san's post.

 

[Kriffix]

Seriously thanks everyone, you've all helped so much!

 

[Ashikaga]

Sorry this is off topic, but, does that mean

the language (or speech) keeps changing ne?

i was wondering what -tte/te ikimasu meant, and then it struck me when i saw ashikaga-san's post.

It does.

Also, when you end your sentence with けどねぇ、、、it's like saying " I know ( the language keeps on changing ) but...

 

[LukeSettle]

It does.
Also, when you end your sentence with ねぇ、、、it's like saying " I know ( the language keeps on changing ) but...

ahh almost like ga?
thanks!