Capital punishment

[karlyboo]

Ok...so let's take a murderer for example. Does his victim have the same chance to live and change his/her life?

No, of course the victim won't. Executing the murderer won't change that one jot, however, so I don't recognise it as a justification for execution.

What makes that murderer's life more valuable than the life/lives he/she may have taken?

Who said their life is more valuable? If we accept that murder is wrong then it must be wrong in all circumstances, surely? Including the murder or a murderer?

Unless we decide that murder is not wrong in all circumstances... [/can of worms]

 

[scorpion da black]

reonero you are the only one here maybe who can understand my point of view....
no one knows how it feels to loose a loved one unless it actually happens to them...
and for so i with capital punishment in only few cases like the ones i mentioned before.

and doctorP san you have the same understanding to the issue as i do..a criminal should repay for his crime by an equal amount of pain inflicted on him for his crime...if it is murder than murder shall be inflicted on him....
the killer shall be killed.

i just need to make a thing clear

when some one kills some one from my family ..we would have the right to either spare the killer's life or ask the court to execute him.

in case the murder was committed by unintentional over beating.
that is like when some one punches a man not knowing that he has a heart problem lets say..the man dies.....so the the killer didnt actually mean to kill, so in this case prison is enough.

in case of killing by mistake..like a car crash for example...that is not punished

i see that as the absolute just

 

[Mars Man]

Ok...so let's take a murderer for example. Does his victim have the same chance to live and change his/her life?

I do think we'll find that this will be a strawman argument, yet of course I can understand the emotional value in it.


Of course the average human is under the weight of what has been up until now, that can neither be denied nor so easily altered. However, I am fully convinced that with effort, we can improve, and overcome some of the basic instincts (notice, some) the emotion of revenge--regardless of circumstances--being one.

I can understand, to a degree, the emotion felt in cases such as those mentioned by Rioneru and scorpion da black and can sympathize, yet can take control over my emotional activity to poke my head out and look far off into the distance, after having taken notice of the road upon which we have traveled so far. Why not be willing to remove oneself from the stagnation of the 'present' and strive for a better 'tomorrow'? As ironic as it may seem, we all die anyway, but the greater 'life' goes on, so we should make effort to lay down a better foundation for that to build upon...little by little.

 

[Rioneru]

Well, its largely these feelings that stem from the individual that bring about action whether solely or with the help of sympathizers. Now, we have the objective moralists who look at such behavior, and as understandable as it may be, it is frowned down upon from this objective stance due to what we can call "displaced optimism". It would be great if we could live in a world where we are not so strongly moved by the pain and suffering caused by capital crimes, but I don't see it as attainable.

Surely, one can say how my individual take on the matter will bring about spoil on a collective level, but realistically, whether one chooses to live in accordance with a particular law or set of laws to aid others or live recklessly, there will always be those who will follow their own path. Society will always be comprised of individuals and their actions and while largely these inviduals may abide by a set of "universally acceptable" moral laws, emotion can make logic take a back seat real quick.

Now, while I don't agree with following every rash impulse or striving to give out the worst possible punishment for something like stolen chickens, I can readily understand a father getting revenge for a murderer killing his daughter for giggles.

 

[Revenant]

The line between capable and incapable of making different choices is awfully blurry and the margin between those we know of being capable of choosing differently and those we know are incapable is still awfully large, as we don't exactly perform brain scans on all those who commit heinous crimes, nor do we even know all the factors that create a person capable of committing heinous crimes.

Certainly environment is one of them, I mean with some nations demanding revenge on each other, all they feel is pain, and all they want is revenge, and they have no reason to think differently when the other side sets a bomb off on their children's schoolbus, or tank shells kill a cousin of theirs.

But there are certainly other differences that set capable and incapable apart, basic neurochemical and neurocircuitry that needs to be studied.

Would humanity still endorse the killing of people incapable of making other choices? How can we be quite certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone was indeed capable of making a different choice - enough to send them off to the chair?

More so, the pyschology that drives those to demand the death penalty, I mean, does the psychology support their well-being, I mean feeling the pain over and over in memory, and hoping to make another feel the pain that they feel. The pain is real, but what really is the best way to deal with that pain, and does the death penalty actually bring relief and closure? Does the pain get diminished upon seeing the contorted face of a murderer painfully dying?

 

[Mars Man]

Perhaps, therefore, it would be best to possible open a thread which deals more closely with the key factors here, rather than with a theme as broad as the death penalty's being productive and positive-in-outcome. As for the greater attitudes of those who are so involved with the present so as to allow what obviously requires greater forcasting, costs, and relinquish for the better of the whole, I think few thinkers would deny that as a world society, we are nowhere near even being able to instigate such a drive in education and understanding at this point in time.

Nevertheless, every effort made to cast the shadow of what we may term humanistic thought over and into the consciousness of general society through educational means, is no loss at all, in any way--perhaps even if it were to fail.

The principle of reciprocity is what is at work here, and rather than allowing the negativeness of self-centeredness to rob what is otherwise a function of positive natural social bonding, through education and social activities and programs we should strive to raise above that mentality of dead-end violence to a somewhat higher level. It will be a long road, yes, but it is hardly an impossibility.

 

[Rioneru]

The line between capable and incapable of making different choices is awfully blurry and the margin between those we know of being capable of choosing differently and those we know are incapable is still awfully large, as we don't exactly perform brain scans on all those who commit heinous crimes, nor do we even know all the factors that create a person capable of committing heinous crimes.

This is true. There are those that are said to be out of sync with their logical mind and act out of their own will. I believe this to a degree. If familiar with John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, the ending scene with George and Lenny regarding Lenny's impending doom comes to mind. Don't want to elaborate in case you, or others haven't had the pleasure of reading it. But, if you have, you can see where I'm going..

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I disagree with the death sentence, particularly as it currently is, for these reasons below;

a. One of the supposed main purposes of the death sentence is to punish the offender for his serious crimes by taking away his life- this works on the eye for an eye philosophy. But on the other hand, we also supposedly live in a society where we are taught that two wrongs do not make a right, so surely people are being highly hypocritical in believing that the death sentence is a just sentence for murderers etc?
In many religions, from Buddhism to Christianity etc, we are taught that murder, the taking of life from an unwilling person, is wrong and one of the highest sins or whatever you want to call them. Surely america, a primarily christian country, is committing a serious sin by murdering is criminals in such a way? No matter how you try to dress it up or look at it, the death sentence is murder. Do you honestly think that if Jesus was re-born again he would be in favor of the death sentence? He wasn't in his day and i'm am sure he wouldn't be in this day too- same goes for Buddha. Participating in the execution i am sure there are often numerous religious people who follow these religions, how hypocritical they are in their actions to the teachings they supposedly value highly!

b. Many people agree with the death sentence in the view point that it helps give the suffering family of the victim closure- but what about the family of the offender? What crimes did they ever commit? Their son may have committed horrendous crimes, which deserve serious punishment, but not punishment which hurts his family too which have committed no crimes at all. They may hate their son for committing the horrendous crimes he did, but on the other hand they still love him as the son they knew before he grew up and committed such crimes etc.
Not just that, but i seriously question the closure that it apparently gives the victims families- you can never truly get over or forget the death of a loved one, and whether your loved ones killer is killed or not that is not going to change what actually happened. It is false hope to believe that killing your loved ones killer is the best way to cope with your loved ones tragic end.

c. In western society we often believe that death is the easy way out of a tough situation, and that living with a horrible situation takes more strength than killing oneself over a horrible situation. So surely it is a more appropriate and better punishment to force people who have committed horrendous crimes to live with themselves and the memories of the crimes they have committed?

d. Killing murders and serial rapists and such people is a very violent form of punishment. If we do such punishment, then why don't we start doing other forms of punishment like sentencing people to whippings/lashings, amputation and torture? These things are really not better than each other. We can't pretend we have the moral high ground over other countries systems of punishment like China when we also inflict violent forms of punishment on our offenders for various crimes etc.
The eye for an eye theory does not work with civilized punishment, we shouldn't only apply it for certain crimes when we don't apply it for others, because that is hypocritical (and to be hypocritical is to not show a good example to others).

e. All forms of death sentences are either gory, extremely painful and stressful, take too much time to kill/are not guaranteed to kill first time round or all of these things etc. We can hardly say capital punishment/death sentencing is different from murder when we do not make proper efforts to make it humane.

 

[Sarapva]

Those are good, clear arguments, Tokis-Phoenix! That about sums it up for how I feel about capital punishment.

 

[scorpion da black]

tokis_pheonix do not put your self in the shoes of the families who have lost some body unless you have been there or done that...
i am glad there was some people to get back at the killers of my relatives...
i made my day brighter..
call it sin i don't care ..in my book it is just

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

tokis_pheonix do not put your self in the shoes of the families who have lost some body unless you have been there or done that...
i am glad there was some people to get back at the killers of my relatives...
i made my day brighter..
call it sin i don't care ..in my book it is just

I have lost very close ones to me, my father was killed in a tragic accident 3 weeks before my 6 year old birthday, so i know what it is like to lose someone very close.

But i ask you this- if you know what it is like to suffer over your relatives deaths, then surely you can sympathize for the suffering your killers relatives felt over the murder of their relatives?
If you had a brother who you loved dearly, but he was stupid enough to commit murder, and your brother was then given the death sentence, how would you feel about it? You have already lost relatives, and now you would lose a brother, surely you would feel pain, sorrow and anger over your brothers fate?


In Buddhism, there are two very important teachings in particular that i think are relevant to this thread;

If possible, you should help others.
If that is not possible, at least you should do no harm.
Refraining from harming others is the essence of the initial stage of living the teachings of morality.

Real compassion extends to each and every sentient being, not just to friends or family or to those in terrible situations.

You have the right to be happy as everyone else, but the difference is that you are one, and they are many. To lose the happiness of a single person is important, but not so important as losing the happiness of many other beings. From this perspective you can cultivate compassion, love and respect for others.
In a sense, all human beings belong to a single family. We need to embrace the oneness of humanity and show concern for everyone- not just my family or my country or my continent. We must show concern for every being, not just the few that resemble us. Differences of religion, ideology, race, economic system, social system, and government are all secondary.


The death sentence is against these principles in so many ways...It only creates fear, hate, anger, feelings of revenge, pain, sorrow and separation. It is murder. You wouldn't want an innocent family to suffer the death of a loved one if you yourself know what it is like to suffer so badly in such a situation, so you should be against the death sentence because it creates exactly those sorts of situations when it is done etc.

 

[Haruspex]

Well I personally don't give a damn about murderers, I'd prefer if they were spared, but their deaths don't shake me, simply capital punishment is pointless, as it destabilizes society, promote it too much and everyone will be asking for it. We barely succeeded with abolishing it in several countries, now would we want to sink back and embrace draconian principles?
I ask you people, are we retarded? I sure don't wish to live in anarchy so someone can have his vengeance, go travel to some uninhibited island for that purpose, I don't care. But somewhere, where the principle of talio exists, CANNOT be a healthy society.

 

[scorpion da black]

if i was a murderer i would be sentenced to death..i wouldn't feel sorry for my self

i would consider it as the best atonement for my sins.

 

[Haruspex]

if i was a murderer i would be sentenced to death..i wouldn't feel sorry for my self

i would consider it as the best atonement for my sins.

You probably weren't sentenced to death yet, nor were you executed I assume, so how do you know how would you feel about your own death?

 

[Revenant]

I don't think that everyone that loses a close relative or friend actually demands revenge.... they may want it at first, but some seem to opt to forgive and let go of feelings of revenge.... although I don't know that everyone would be capable of that, seeing as we are all very different. Interestingly, those in the countries that don't have capital punishment don't seem to be calling for the death penalty, even if they lost a close relative. It seems that not having the death penalty as an option keeps people from considering all the reasons they may want it, and that as I see it is far better than people reliving pain in memory and holding ill will towards those that hurt them by taking a loved one.. the option of the death penealty seems to strengthen ill will and the need for vengeance. Just my thoughts....

 

[karlyboo]

tokis_pheonix do not put your self in the shoes of the families who have lost some body unless you have been there or done that...
i am glad there was some people to get back at the killers of my relatives...
i made my day brighter..
call it sin i don't care ..in my book it is just

We seem to have veered away from state execution of criminals and onto a theme of general, violent revenge based on a gang of nondescript 'justice dealers'.

In my book that's called a lynch mob. The problem with that being that mobs and vigilantes are not accountable to the people they (I suppose are meant to) protect, do not obey due process and are more than capable of murdering someone for entirely erroneous reasons.

In other words they're about as useful and 'just' as one would expect an angry, blood-thirsty mob of thugs to be.

 

[scorpion da black]

well karlyboo san the people on the other side of the spectrum would consider your words true

 

[Mitsuo]

I have mixed feelings. A great punishment would force the murderers, or persons guilty of horrific crimes, to rot in prison for the rest of his/her life. But I have no strong belief against capital punishment. I honestly don't care if a murderer is executed. I can clearly see both sides of it. I know that if someone were to take the life of a loved one, I would definitely want to hurt them, as bad as that may sound. I personally find the eye for an eye punishment to be justifiable in many ways. If someone purposely chopped off the hand of another, then I feel that they too should feel the pain that they induced on their victim. Of course that's pretty gruesome. But I do find it justifiable. I do understand that there are other implications and problems to this, but I don't want to go through them right now.

One argument for the death penalty is that we are wasting resources on people who have absolutely no respect for other's lives. We should not have to spend our tax dollars on people who qualify for death row. People who murder deserve no rights. I don't care if they're human beings, they should know right from wrong. Unless they're mentally unstable of course. I can say that I would not be sad one bit for the execution of a PROVEN killer.

That being said, I will refer to the first sentence in my post. I do think that rotting in prison for the rest of their lives is a great punishment. But I do find myself leaning more for capital punishment. Proven killers, in my opinion, have no rights and our tax dollars should not be used to help feed and provide warmth to these people. They are just taking up room in our prisons.

 

[EvilCowSlayer]

Both life sentences and death sentences cost a lot of money. While I'm not sure on exact figures, most of the death sentence costs come from countless desperate appeals, DNA tests, all that kind of stuff. That comes out of our tax dollars too. Just food for thought.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

One argument for the death penalty is that we are wasting resources on people who have absolutely no respect for other's lives. We should not have to spend our tax dollars on people who qualify for death row. People who murder deserve no rights. I don't care if they're human beings, they should know right from wrong. Unless they're mentally unstable of course. I can say that I would not be sad one bit for the execution of a PROVEN killer.
That being said, I will refer to the first sentence in my post. I do think that rotting in prison for the rest of their lives is a great punishment. But I do find myself leaning more for capital punishment. Proven killers, in my opinion, have no rights and our tax dollars should not be used to help feed and provide warmth to these people. They are just taking up room in our prisons.

If expenses of keeping prisoners in prison are an issue, how about introducing a system of mandatory labour in prisons? I think it would be far better if criminals were forced to do work while in prison to help pay for their stay (it would be also good for those prisoners destined to be released back into the community at some point after serving their sentences, mandatory work may help reform prisoners and rehabilitate them back into the community etc). That way the death sentence as a means of cheap punishment would no longer be necessary and the mandatory work the prisoners were made to do would also benefet the local communities and economies, the profits could be put back into running the prison or other things like the health care and education systems or old peoples homes or public parks etc .

 

[Mitsuo]

Both life sentences and death sentences cost a lot of money. While I'm not sure on exact figures, most of the death sentence costs come from countless desperate appeals, DNA tests, all that kind of stuff. That comes out of our tax dollars too. Just food for thought.

Hey EvilCowSlayer,

Correct, they both cost a lot of money. I too am not sure on the numbers. But to me, the mere thought of our tax dollars going to the support of a murderer is, I find, degrading to society and to the family of the victim. But of course you can always look at it in another context. We can also see it as us making sure that they live to a ripe old age just so they can think about what they've done. Hopefully the convict feels remorse. Also, tax dollars going to DNA testing is something I have no problem with. They need to know that they have the right person.

But there's a lesson in this topic. You can't legislate morality. Because, who's right?

 

[Mitsuo]

If expenses of keeping prisoners in prison are an issue, how about introducing a system of mandatory labour in prisons? I think it would be far better if criminals were forced to do work while in prison to help pay for their stay (it would be also good for those prisoners destined to be released back into the community at some point after serving their sentences, mandatory work may help reform prisoners and rehabilitate them back into the community etc). That way the death sentence as a means of cheap punishment would no longer be necessary and the mandatory work the prisoners were made to do would also benefet the local communities and economies, the profits could be put back into running the prison or other things like the health care and education systems or old peoples homes or public parks etc .

Hi Tokis-Phoenix,

That's a nice idea. I know that prisoners do work in prison already. I'm not sure where the money goes after they've earned it. I actually have a story about this. I used to work on a golf course, and before I got there they had a community service program that allowed cons to work on the grounds crew. I guess the very first day of one con turned out to be a bad experience. Apparently he asked, "So, how long does it take to get hit by a golf ball around here?". Well, approximately five minutes later he got hit in the mouth with a golf ball. He never went back. (That story was just for the sake of sharing, not at all a point for my argument). Back to the premise. I agree with you. I think it would be OK to allow the non-threatening criminals a chance to redeem themselves. I know you didn't sponsor this, but I don't think murderers should ever get a chance to live in society. They ended one or more people's lives, so their life should be ended in either a life sentence or the death penalty. I truly believe that once you purposely end a person's life then all of your right's should be stripped away.

That being said, I have to mention that it depends on the circumstances in which murder took place, as well as the age of the culprit. Negligent homicide should never result in the death penalty or even a life-sentence. If defense was the factor in someone's death, then no penalty. But it would be quite the effort in convincing a jury/court that you're innocent, especially if there were no witnesses to coincide with your story.

Again, I still have mixed feelings about this.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

if i was a murderer i would be sentenced to death..i wouldn't feel sorry for my self

i would consider it as the best atonement for my sins.

You might be willing to do that but in reality a lot of murderers aren't willing to do the same- there's no point in killing a killer if they are unwilling because they cannot atone for it if they are not alive to do so.

Not just that, but if you are a religious man, then what religion do you follow?


The taking of a life from an unwilling person is murder- the executioners are murders just that same as the murders they are executing. If you are Christian, when did the Bible ever teach that killing people was ever the best way to deal with a problem, like the problem with what to do with or how to treat murderers? When did Jesus ever teach people that this was the right thing to do? And besides, whatever the punishment we give people on Earth in life, if you are religious and believe in an afterlife then you will have faith in that murderers will be brought to justice and punished by those higher powers you really do have the right to decide over matters of life and death. Hell or reincarnation, no one escapes the system- there is no need to kill murderers. IMHO Forcing them to live in captivity for their crimes is a far more appropriate punishment than any other i have seen.

 

[scorpion da black]

i am a Muslim tokis-pheonix san...
and yes i am a religious person and for that i choose to follow the justice that our lord sent us which is sending the killer to eternal hell...

i didn't say do that in all cases of murder...(that would be against our religion)
i only said that death penalty should be done to serial rapists...serial killers...war criminals...proud cold blooded killers...

other killers who do it out of poverty or out of mistakes...are to prisoned as to the degree of their guilt...and then they may atone to their sins...and may be redeem them selves...
as a Muslim i would never take a life...but the court with judges who are well educated...well ready to make a judgment on a person when there is absolute evidence of murder..are qualified to decide who is guilty and who is not...

the difference between me and you is that Jesus says "who slaps you on one cheek give him the other"
we say " who who attacks you attack him back ..never be the starters "
that in my point of view is more just...
you say two wrongs don't make a right..
i say who ever said attacking an aggressor was wrong???
it is just and can be put in the frame of " pre-defense"

i do believe in forgiving...but forgiving will occur from me alone not from some one forcing to forgive..i ( if i had a close one murdered) can choose whether to forgive or not...no one should abolish death sentence and choose to forgive against my will.

 

[karlyboo]

i am a Muslim tokis-pheonix san...
and yes i am a religious person and for that i choose to follow the justice that our lord sent us which is sending the killer to eternal hell...

I find it hard to understand why an omnipotent God would need men to exact his justice for him. Surely God is judge, jury and executioner in these matters?

My apologies for the detour of conversation.