Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners

[Elizabeth]

I also agree that calling long-term residents freeloaders just because they may not have learned to be extremely fluent. The definition just doesn't fit, as others have explained.

You're the one that introduced a standard of "extremely fluency" which is highly unlikely to become an official requirement as it is obviously not necessary for day to day living or integration into society. What is more realistic and what I was basing my judgment on was a familiarity with basic (phrase-book level) conversation/writing (maybe 100 or so common kanji) skills.

Elizabeth wrote: Ahem. They may have studied for that long, but they certainly didn't learn anywhere near enough to be called conversationally fluent. As a teacher, I can attest to that.

Whether through standard schooling, business or overseas stays, clearly enough have learned enough English to make those who haven't learned a whit be able to comfortably "live off their charity, generosity and hospitality" (Freeloading metaphorically applied). That was my point. And please stop complaining about their conversational ability until yours is comparable in Japanese.

 

[orochi]

Generalizations and preconceptions are yummy on Thursdays!

 

[orochi]

Tell me what is the difference between "decided" and decided to consider in English...
In Japanese, it must be a huge difference...

Decide would be ﾅ塚??凖ｨﾂ 窶ｰﾃで塚 or similar.

Decided to consider would just be ﾅ椎ｸ窶慊｢窶堙ｰﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｩ or similar.

 

[thatsme]

give and take

I am for, if the Japanese government will help foreigners to study the language.

Free classes, etc...
If our motivation is not met by theirs, then naturally no one would feel to make the effort.

As for the Kanji that is another issue.


we can only be assimilated to a certain degree.
cheers

 

[orochi]

Who's being assimilated???

 

[thatsme]

Who's being assimilated???

no one

unconsciously we are, to a certain degree that is.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

The initiative is clearly designed to weed out individuals who haven't got a clue about the Japanese language and create an unnecessary burden on the bureaucratic processes in Japan because they can't understand the simplest of things. I'm sure Elizabeth's comments were directed at those individuals, the ones who make zero effort to learn and expect to be catered to in English or whatever their native tongue is wherever they go. Some of them have lived there for quite some time, too. And keep in mind that paying taxes is the absolute bare minimum, also. Paying taxes grants you some entitlement but not to the detriment of others who pay taxes also.

Canada is one of the most multicultural places in the world and we definitely have to put up with some people here who I would, without shame, deem 'useless'; that is, individuals who haven't tried and never will try to learn English and simply exist within their own isolated ethnic communities. Many of those individuals live here without contributing one bit to Canada (not even taxes, on the contrary the receive monthly hand-outs) but expect to receive all the services everyone else does AND to receive them in their own language. Some even make a point of finding and exploiting the loopholes an open system like this obviously suffers from. Every country could do without these individuals, and I think Japan simply wishes to tackle the problem before it becomes wide-spread by introducing basic mandatory requirements.

 

[Elizabeth]

The initiative is clearly designed to weed out individuals who haven't got a clue about the Japanese language and create an unnecessary burden on the bureaucratic processes in Japan because they can't understand the simplest of things. I'm sure Elizabeth's comments were directed at those individuals, the ones who make zero effort to learn and expect to be catered to in English or whatever their native tongue is wherever they go.

Yes, exactly. Making a good faith effort for long term residents to be as inoffensive and well accepted by the community as possible is I'm sure what these preliminary examinations from the government are attempting to correct. I am referring to the ones I think we've all encountered that don't apologize for bothering whoever they are about to barge into, ask in Japanese if the person speaks English and proceed to chat away like it is their God given right to be perfectly understood. Bad enough in tourists. Completely unacceptable for everyone else.

 

[nice gaijin]

Doesn't instating a potentially expensive government regulation (and I'd hope education program) seem like a bit far to go just to teach some annoying people a lesson? Who is going to pay for this?

And we've been talking about English-speaking foreign residents, what about those that don't speak English? I doubt they'd go somewhere and start speaking Portuguese or Chinese or Hindi to Japanese people and expect to be accommodated in their mother tongue. One would think that the onus is on them to adapt to get around, either by learning Japanese or having someone around to interpret, or finding some other method to communicate.

Again, the issue at hand isn't whether foreign residents should learn Japanese (I think we've all agreed on that), but whether it should be required by law.

 

[shintemaster]

Buerucratic xenophobia at its best. The fact that it would be helpful to learn a language doesn't mean it should be mandated by law. The simple truth is that Japan is heading towards a situation where they will desparately need massive immigration in order to support their population and economy. That is a fact and the culture as a whole seems unable to cope at any time in the near future with the challenges which a multicultural society will bring.

I also don't understand the idea of pushing foreigners to become more Japanese when their is no chance at present of them ever being accepted as such. Japan is heading steadily towards a situation where they will need foreigners more than they will need Japan. Interesting times.

 

[thatsme]

Could it be that are trying to reenstate the pure Japanese race, whatever that means?
By trying to get rid of the poison me as a foreigner, and at the same time, give a huge incentive to the Japanese pure couple to reprocreate?

Nah!!!

 

[ArmandV]

Again, the issue at hand isn't whether foreign residents should learn Japanese (I think we've all agreed on that), but whether it should be required by law.

Finally, someone sums up the issue!

 

[Glenski]

Is this news article so 'breaking' ?

Yes, otherwise we wouldn't have so many opinions on it, Homerduff. This proposed policy, even in its embryo stage, has far-reaching negative impact potential. Personally, I think the whole announcement was far too premature.

 

[Elizabeth]

I also don't understand the idea of pushing foreigners to become more Japanese when their is no chance at present of them ever being accepted as such. Japan is heading steadily towards a situation where they will need foreigners more than they will need Japan. Interesting times.

And perhaps this is already an initial step towards planning for that inevitable day when greater numbers of unskilled workers will be required to offset the low birth rate labor shortage. Language is after all perhaps the most necessary and direct way to ensure the smooth integratation of any immigrant group into the greater social fabric and economy. Relax some visa requirements enabling manual labor admittance while strengthening others such as language. Certain incentives on the other end could also be offered for keeping highly fluent, high skilled workers in the country permanently.

I doubt very much the government is going to end up implementing a rigorous, high stakes test of Japanese ability that ends up throwing any
well trained employees out of the country. It all seems rather more designed to produce an increasingly flexible system of tradeoffs and incentives...

 

[Glenski]

You're the one that introduced a standard of "extremely fluency"

Fair enough.

which is highly unlikely to become an official requirement as it is obviously not necessary for day to day living or integration into society.

I prefer not to make that call just yet, Elizabeth. Neither of us knows what the 2 ministries will ask for. However, it is often wise to play Devil's Advocate, so I do.

What is more realistic and what I was basing my judgment on was a familiarity with basic (phrase-book level) conversation/writing (maybe 100 or so common kanji) skills.

Personally, I think they will be asking for far more than this, but let's just wait and see. Who knows how long it will take before we see more from the MOJ on this anyway? Six months? A year? Two? Five?

I wrote: They may have studied for that long, but they certainly didn't learn anywhere near enough to be called conversationally fluent. As a teacher, I can attest to that.
Elizabeth responded:

Whether through standard schooling, business or overseas stays, clearly enough have learned enough English to make those who haven't learned a whit be able to comfortably "live off their charity, generosity and hospitality" (Freeloading metaphorically applied). That was my point.

Now you are the one going to extremes here, by implying a huge number (majority?) have not learned one iota of Japanese despite long-term stay. I don't disagree that many have not learned much, but to say zilch is far too extreme. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that since no language requirement has been imposed, it has not stopped long-term residents from doing their rightful thing of paying taxes, paying for schooling of children, paying for insurance, etc. That's not freeloading, living off charity, or anything else. Japanese know it is hard to learn their language anyway, and they don't even expect foreigners to learn it here. You know the stories about people who attempt to speak it, yet get shocked responses back from the locals.

And please stop complaining about their conversational ability until yours is comparable in Japanese.

Please stop telling me what I can or cannot post here. You are not the moderator and it doesn't take anyone perfectly fluent in Japanese to discuss this issue.

 

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth responded: Now you are the one going to extremes here, by implying a huge number (majority?) have not learned one iota of Japanese despite long-term stay. I don't disagree that many have not learned much, but to say zilch is far too extreme. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that since no language requirement has been imposed, it has not stopped long-term residents from doing their rightful thing of paying taxes, paying for schooling of children, paying for insurance, etc. That's not freeloading, living off charity, or anything else. Japanese know it is hard to learn their language anyway, and they don't even expect foreigners to learn it here. You know the stories about people who attempt to speak it, yet get shocked responses back from the locals.

Whether it is hard or not, whether the natives respect you back by responding in Japanese, whether it has any practical effect at all is completely irrelevant to the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language. Again a different issue from the role of government intervention or infrastructure necessary to its effective implementation.

Although you do have a point that perhaps my rhetoric did get a bit out of hand on the question of zilch vs. knowing how to buy a train ticket or a few everyday kanji. It could be that the people most cowed by the possibility of a test are simply unable to have a basic conversation or struggle to put a simple sentence together.

 

[Taiko666]

Good rule. Too bad for those English native business men who may be dead scared of learning 1 new language. At the age of 12 (and let's say all average 12 years old students in Belgium), I was already familiar with 3 languages.

Good rule. Too bad for those English native business men who may be dead scared of learning 1 new language. At the age of 12 (and let's say all average 12 years old students in Belgium), I was already familiar with 3 languages.

Thanks for your somewhat self-satisfied opinion. Belgium is hardly unique in that respect... although it does have an advantage in that the country has two equally important official languages.

So do you think somebody who has contributed to Japanese society for years should lose his/her livelihood and family as a consequence of failing a language test?

. I doubt very much the government is going to end up implementing a rigorous, high stakes test of Japanese ability that ends up throwing any well trained employees out of the country. It all seems designed to produce a more flexible system of tradeoffs and incentives...

That indeed is a possibilty! But given the J-Gov's record on immigration issues it seems like wishful thinking. We'll have to wait for the details.

 

[Anatoli]

Could it be that are trying to reenstate the pure Japanese race, whatever that means?
By trying to get rid of the poison me as a foreigner, and at the same time, give a huge incentive to the Japanese pure couple to reprocreate?
Nah!!!

Would you say so, if your own original country introduced a similar law (if it hasn't already)? Race and language are not the same thing.

 

[Glenski]

Whether it is hard or not, whether the natives respect you back by responding in Japanese, whether it has any practical effect at all is completely irrelevant to the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language. Again a different issue from the role of government intervention or infrastructure necessary to its effective implementation.

I'm not arguing with the first part. I am arguing the second. What's your stand on the latter, other than to say there will likely be no rigorous test?

I don't want to speculate too much, because this whole article (and the couple of others that followed) were obviously premature and vague. However, I will continue to throw out the caveats as if the government will continue to show its stupidity, discriminatory nature, and blindness towards certain issues, as necessary.

 

[orochi]

the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language

I pay taxes like every other Japanese person. I'd say that's all I owe, and it's paid.

 

[thatsme]

Would you say so, if your own original country introduced a similar law (if it hasn't already)? Race and language are not the same thing.

Perhaps most of human would.
I am the minority, the answer I would'nt

 

[Homerduff]

Thanks for your somewhat self-satisfied opinion. Belgium is hardly unique in that respect... although it does have an advantage in that the country has two equally important official languages.
So do you think somebody who has contributed to Japanese society for years should lose his/her livelihood and family as a consequence of failing a language test?

\

I know Belgium isn't unique for that mather. I'm mostly talking about European countries. Anyway as for my 'self-satisfied' opinion, I have you got the point that learning a language shouldn't be a burden. I'm aware that English native speakers may worry more about this because foreign languages are usually less taught at a young age. That is not the fault of English native speakers. It's the fault of the education system for one part, and also the fact that English is the number 1 international language so why bother learning other languages..

I'm sure that the test level won't be amazingly high. Knowing that you have to get JLPT 2 to enter most Japanese colleges. If he/she isn't willing to learn Japanese, then yes he/she should face the consequences. If you have 'contributed' to the Japanese society for an amount of years, you should have some respect towards Japanese society itself also. And what is the best way to show respect to society ? Yes, learn the language.

 

[Homerduff]

Yes, otherwise we wouldn't have so many opinions on it, Homerduff. This proposed policy, even in its embryo stage, has far-reaching negative impact potential. Personally, I think the whole announcement was far too premature.

It depends on how you see this; either you see this new policy as a protection for foreigners themselves or - a well-known feature of the Japanese gouvernment - another policy to keep away immigrants out of Japan.

Everyone knows that Japan is in need of immigrant workers. Having an outstanding degree may sometimes cover up your lack of Japanese, especially in branches where Japanese are less skilled. Soon, other jobs will come open that don't demand extremely high degrees but you can't get passed the language. Anyone that's my feeling about the mather. If the Japanese gouvernment has other meanings (keeping out foreigners) with this new policy, then they are just a bunch of idiots.

 

[Davey]

Good thing in my opinion. The only question is who decides until what level foreigners should learn Japanese. Basic conversations?

 

[nyouyaku]

Farang learning Rubenhua

I think the foreigners themselves can pay for the Japanese language classes. If they don't like it, they can go home. This I am sure is the mindset of Japan. Maybe bakakanadajin, in your country, the government would be paying for it, and ensuring that they get the equal opportunity for employment as any other citizen. Only in your country, which is a dreamland. Japan while being the top asian country with respects to the standard of living and being the most developed, is not progressed to the level or lacks the generosity of Canada with respects to the foreigner population. As a Thai, I would rather take up citizenship in your country than Japan, and while a foreigner, would enjoy greater equality and tolerance for foreigners as my country has for farangs.