Huh?

[Taiko666]

kireikoori- I think the answer to your questions has been written up many times much better than I could ever manage. But it seems social interaction in Japan is always based on in-group / out-group. One is more polite to people in your out-group, but more open with people in your in-group.

On a worldwide level, Japan is the in-group, everyone else is the out-group. When you stayed with your family, you were a guest to be honoured and looked after (out-group) and eventually became very close and (almost) in-group.

I am in the in-group of my true Japanese friends. To all other Japanese, I'm very much out-group, being a stranger and a foreigner

I think much of the xenophobia seen in Japan comes from Japanese not wanting foreigners to join their Japan in-group.

There, that's enough in/out grouping for the time being!

 

[tokapi]

I think much of the xenophobia seen in Japan comes from Japanese not wanting foreigners to join their Japan in-group.

Japanese culture has entrenched clannishness

Japanese are polite & humble in their social interactions,typically would keep you at a distance.


Here is transcript of a brief conversation with Japanese language exchange partner Naoko on MSN.

( tokapi ) It's a common frustration in our social interactions with Japanese because the culture practices " indirect approach " to communication

( Naoko ) 日本人の世界は「察し」の文化だからね.たしかに他の国の人たちから見れば大変かも.

* 察し 【さっし】 consideration; guess; conjecture; judgment; judgement;

 

[Davey]

( Naoko ) 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堙個青｢ﾅ?E窶堙債「ﾅｽ@窶堋ｵﾂ」窶堙娯?｢ﾂｶ窶ｰﾂｻ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙?窶堋ｽ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堙俄?伉ｼ窶堙個坂?倪?堙個人窶堋ｽ窶堋ｿ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾅ陳ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?佚･窶｢ﾃ鞘?堋ｩ窶堙?.

uuuh... how about a translation?

 

[pipokun]

it seems social interaction in Japan is always based on in-group / out-group.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I cannot imange what sort of interaction would be besides the in/out.
Enlighten me, please.

IELTS 6.5/5.5 is required to work in the UK.
6.1 Work Permit and Highly Skilled Migrants
6.1.6 What English language qualifications do you hold?
If English is your first language please state this. Otherwise please provide full details of any English language qualifications you hold e.g. IELTS or TOEFL Please provide supporting documentary evidence
http://www.vfs-uk-jp.com/japan/images/VAF2-GUIDANCE-NOTES.pdf

Is this the institutionalised xenophobia?

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I wonder how many in the US and Canada feel their culture has aspects whose long-standing purity and pedigree needs to be protected and preserved due to an influx of foreign presence? I could definitely see this in say, Great Britain, but not on the North American continent.

The reason why in/out group mentality is so strong in the average Japanese person (or even Chinese, a much older culture) is something we may never understand IMHO.

 

[MadamePapillon]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I cannot imange what sort of interaction would be besides the in/out.
Enlighten me, please.

Well, I'll just use my college as an example. We have people from all over the world and all sorts of different cultures here and in all the time I've been there (almost 2 years) there has not been a single time I can think of when anybody has been excluded simply because they weren't "one of us".

People from Canada, America, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, China ect, we all go to the same school and talk and hang out, there isn't and "us and them" because we're all in the same boat. Just trying to survive college XD

I think you just have to be willing to put aside the differences and just look at people for people. If all you see is how different someone is you'll never see how alike you really are.

If you get what I mean

 

[pipokun]

It is great that Canadian schools conduct strong anti-bullying programs after the suicide of a girl. But why do the kids in the same boat bully other passengers?
And your case is just the "us" case as long as you go to the same school.

bakaKanadajin I wonder how many in the US and Canada feel their culture has aspects whose long-standing purity and pedigree needs to be protected and preserved due to an influx of foreign presence? I could definitely see this in say, Great Britain, but not on the North American continent.

What about the recent hate crime starting from a school yard fight in the US?
And the gated community is the good example in the North America.
Or the white flight is also the one.

You may say we Canadians are diffrent from Americans, though...

 

[MadamePapillon]

It is great that Canadian schools conduct strong anti-bullying programs after the suicide of a girl. But why do the kids in the same boat bully other passengers?
And your case is just the "us" case as long as you go to the same school.

You misunderstand.

The point I was trying to make is that in most cases there isn't an issue if somebody from another culture or race wants to be a part of the group. You wont see many people excluding somebody simply because they are from a different country.

It happens...but there's not a widespread clan mentality among most Canadians. Us and Them. People still form groups and bully or exclude people, but that's a whole other issue.

 

[tokapi]

* 日本人の世界は「察し」の文化だからね :?

( tokapi ) Ok .. Naokoさん,would you please explain it & provide an example of what 日本は察しの文化 really means.

( Naoko ) I said," Between Japanese,we tend to avoid saying our real opinion directly. If I think i disagree with your opinion, I'd say at first, I suppose so but.... It is a little different intonation. When we heard this, we guess you might think disagree with my opinion.".察しmeans "reading people, reading their feelings",another word is "perceive".

We Japanese do distinguish these opposite thoughts unconsciously, when or who we talk to ! 本音 ( Honne ), or true thoughts are expressed privately, and 建前 ( Tatemae ), or the social opinions are expressed in public to keep one's face and social acceptance.Japanese people tend to express ( 本音 ) Honne only to their intimate friends or immediate family.

She said that with Japanese friends, at the beginning, everyone is nice. They won't show their true feelings easily and will compliment my level of Japanese (which is horrible!) so that I won't feel discouraged. But this is just the outside face. She said that once they feel comfortable in our friendship (which typically takes longer for the feelings on their side to develop versus my side) only then will they let me know their real opinions on things. Only then will they tell me of their concerns for me or if something I've done has unwittingly offended them. She used the analogy that a Japanese person was like an onion, there were different layers that they felt comfortable showing people depending on their relationship.

we're not necessarily used to the idea of a public face versus a private face. The personality that I show the world is the person that I am at all times.


********************* ************************

 

[pipokun]

You misunderstand.
The point I was trying to make is that in most cases there isn't an issue if somebody from another culture or race wants to be a part of the group. You wont see many people excluding somebody simply because they are from a different country.
It happens...but there's not a widespread clan mentality among most Canadians. Us and Them. People still form groups and bully or exclude people, but that's a whole other issue.

So what about the Taiko666's case? He made friends with others, maybe Japanese, in Japan. Probably some UK loving fundamentalists are one of them, but I just suppose frineds are just frineds.
Just wondering how Taiko666 would react to the out-group in his country or Japan.
If he would treat them in the same attitude as his/her friends, he should start his own religion. Talking about the weather with strangers may be a bit irrelevant here.

 

[tokapi]

but there's not a widespread clan mentality among most Canadians. Us and Them.

村八分 Mura-Hachibu ( Ostracism )


村八分は、江戸時代から行われている習慣です。村の秩序を乱した人は、制裁として、村のみんなから交際を断たれます。もう、同じグループの一員として受け入れてもらえないのです。でもこれは、文字通り、八分・・８０％なのです。

ではでは、残りの２０％は何を意味するでしょう？それは、火事とお葬式です。仲間外れにしても，本当にその人が困っている時には助けるのです。日本人はどんな時も人の和が大切だと信じています。

私は、完全にその人を追放したりしない、この言葉をつくった日本人の感性が気に入っています。

Mura-Hachibu is a custom held from the Edo era .Mura ( 村 ) means village and Hachibu means 80% ( 八分 ).It means that as for the person who disturbed order of a village, the person is quitted association by everyone as sanctions…They refuse to accept the person as a member of the group.However it doesn't mean breaking off completely.…It's 80% !

Then what do you think what 20% means ? It means a fire and a funeral.When the person was really troubled, they help the person.Japanese believe that a harmonious group spirit is very important anytime.

I like the Japanese sensitivity that does not completely expel the person

 

[kireikoori]

I take back my earlier words now -__- It's now just become a discussion of "in" and "out" culture again. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'm out.

 

[Mars Man]

If there are any further comments on the cultural differences between subjects like relations between married couples, and the sexual activities of young people, I would like to see those. If there are not, I would suggest the present line of discussion be dropped since it's too far off topic; PLEASE !

 

[Taiko666]

So what about the Taiko666's case? He made friends with others, maybe Japanese, in Japan. Probably some UK loving fundamentalists are one of them, but I just suppose frineds are just frineds.

(with apologies to Mars Man, again (>_<) )

The fact that you imply that the only Japanese who could possibly be in my in-group are Anglophiles is both insulting and a vivid insight into your mindset (which I assume is a common mindset in Japan.)

The issue of whether in-group / out-group mentality is peculiar to Japan is much more difficult. Obviously one treats strangers differently from close friends, but that doesn't adequately describe the Japanese way. But again, I think your comment above helps... you seem to think that me, as a foreigner, couldn't possibly become part of a Japanese in-group. That's maybe the difference... in Japan the 'rules' and attitudes are rigid, and require huge effort to overcome. In other countries, in/out group stuff is much less important, more fluid, and non-exclusionary.

 

[Chi65]

What made me wonder in Japan, was their very immediate welcome and offer to wash and what not my back, lending me their cosmetical "instruments" to try out and give me every warmth like for an old friend. . .in public baths!
When there three times, some already had tears in their eyes for me saying good bye then, and were waiting for me on the way to walk with me to the bath.
I know no country, that so immediately made me feel welcome and at home. And thats only one example. A part is clearly curiosity, but a certain border, as we know it here, was as quickly overrun. I had no chance to escape this, but maybe I signalised that they can do it with me.
Thus, also amongst artists, I made the most wonderfull experiences. Also, when a friend of this one, then I was as much a friend of them etc.(and I am not a child of sadness).
This in/out business remained a legend for me thus, even outside my artist circles. I was "adopted" many times and quickly included in everyday life or excursions etc. But I never started, I was simply there and waited, and here they come again, and always the right ones and often enough solid friendships for years!
I could still write a book about it, also how they tore down "barriers", that was often enough very interesting.
But when I realy needed a rest, I got it too, without words. Deep respect for their fine feelings!
Not to mention they are the best guests over here, that I ever had!

I LOVE Japan for this!(and miss it)

Over and over again, as a woman.