Hiroshima and Nagasaki

I've been to the Hiroshima Peace Park. Kids with pieces of flesh hanging off them, people desperate to drink from radioactive water, and the after effects of the bomb were just miserable. No, I don't think the bomb was justified.

I'm no historian, but as I understand it, in part the reason for the bomb was that the Japanese were negotiating a conditional surrender with the Soviets, and already Soviet troops were making their way down the Sakhalin Islands.

The U.S. needed the Japanese to surrender unconditionally soon, very soon. Thus the bombs were dropped, and it was made out like the U.S. had more bombs to drop. Perhaps Japan would be very different today had the Japanese succeeded in a conditional surrender with the Soviets, or had the Soviets entered Japan via Hokkaido while the U.S. entered via Kyushu .
 
The one thing that can't be forgotten is context - the Japanese proved over and over that they were willing to fight and die to the last man. The invasion of Okinawa was a massacre on both sides with casualties in the hundred-thousands. In war, the objective is to win, and to not waste the lives of your own troops. The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of Allied lives. They were not in a position to care about the Japanese, who, as previously mentioned, would have fought to the last man, woman, and child.
Anyone in a position of power who would choose a bloody invasion that would cost their own side hundreds of thousands of casualties over another option that would not kill thier own troops would be unforgivable. In that context, it really can't be argued. The emperor surrendered without the approval of the military. The military was ready to fight and die. 60 years of hindsight is good for moral argument, but in 1945 they didn't have that luxury. End the war with massive Japanese casualties, or end the war with massive Allied and Japanese casualties? At that moment in history, I don't see the decision being all that difficult. Sometimes in the middle of a bloody war, understandably the "moral" implications are set aside for the quickest and easiest victory. Just a thought.
The russians were poised to invade, (not negotiate) so I am sure that also had bearing on the decision - the Russians had already claimed half of Germany, along with Poland, and so the US may not have wanted the same thing to happen to Japan (even if it was just because of a loss of a strategic base in East asia). Would a Japan under russian control (a communist Japan) have been much better than a thriving world superpower that Japan would eventually become? Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that the battle of Okinawa (along with the rest of the islands) already proved to the leaders at that time who had to go on the info that they had available (namely body counts) that Japan was not going to go quietly.
The Japanese civilians were as much a victim of thier own government as the nuclear bombs. They had no say in anything their government did. And they paid dearly for this fact.
 
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They were not in a position to care about the Japanese, who, as previously mentioned, would have fought to the last man, woman, and child.
The casualties probably would have been high, but actually a lot of Japanese weren't eager to die for their country, and it was only a select few that did things like fly kamikaze airplanes.
 
The casualties probably would have been high, but actually a lot of Japanese weren't eager to die for their country, and it was only a select few that did things like fly kamikaze airplanes.

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20 - the Allied leaders would have no way of knowing that - what they would have is 4 years of experience with the Japanese soldiers who would choose death over surrender, and the most recent experience in Okinawa that I mentioned. Information that at the time would have pointed to the Japanese fighting to the bitter end.
 
There's actually a wealth of research that points to relatively low casualities estimated, many if not most high military were opposed to it, that Japan was ready to surrender, etc...
 
Sometimes when looking at major events in history like the atomic bombs - hearing directly from the people involved gives a new perspective - especially when they all say the essentially the same thing.

Firstly it is worth re-quoting President Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, who wrote that using the
ツ"barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weaponsツ".
He lamented that the US government
ツ"had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Agesツ".
(Quoted, Anthony Gregory, ツ'Targeting Civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

The US Strategic Bombing Survey, which interviewed 700 Japanese military and political officials after the war, came to this conclusion:
ツ"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.ツ"
(Quoted, Howard Zinn, The Zinn Reader, Seven Stories, 1997)

As was referred to in an earlier post - in 1963, former US president Dwight Eisenhower actually told Newsweek that
ツ"the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thingツ".
(Gregory, op. cit)

Brigadier general Carter Clarke, the military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables for president Truman and his advisors, commented:
"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."
(Gregory, ibid)

There's nothing like the own words of the people in power at the time to incriminate themselves in committing the worst of all war crimes!
 
Too bad we can't see how it would have played out if the bombs hadn't been dropped. It would end a lot of the back and forth bickering that still goes on after 60 years. Another theory holds that it was done to scare the Russians. Pretty much any reason they had had some sort of validity. I kinda doubt the thought process was "we just want to kill people, so let's do it yay~!" but who knows. If they really thought Russia was a threat (And general Patton suggested that they take up the German army regulars and fight russia back out of germany and poland into russia) and it seems they did, that might have bee all of the validation they needed. Just can't help but think the 4 year nightmare across the pacific wasn't of some influence on the decision. Regardless, It isn't a decision I'd want to make 😌

You also can't ignore that maybe after the fact, these people felt guilty and wanted to pass the blame by saying "Even at the time, I didn't really think we should have done it."
 
If you really want to delve into it, you can read either of the following
that author Gar Aplerovitz has really done his research. Or track down
his email online and ask him for some articles he wrote in the matter.

"Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam" 1965

"The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb" 1996
 
I know this topic is quite old, but I kind of want to point something important out.

Japan would have developed the A-bomb before the USA if japan took over hawaii. The USA destroyed Japan's a-bomb research facility during the firebombing of tokyo.

America would probably be a parking lot right now if the americans didn't get the upper hand in the war, and had to fight between the west coast and hawaii. The Japanese started before america did on their atomic program, were further along than America before war broke out, and probably would have had an operational bomb first (remember the shipment of weapons-grade uranium from germany to japan that was intercepted?)

After all, I think some can agree that the japanese forces were a lot more evil than the USA forces were in WWII, and you can bet your *** they would have used the a-bomb on america. The Japanese used several thousand balloon bombs to just kill SEVEN Americans on the continental united states, so you can probably guarantee they would have gone to much further extremes to kill even more Americans.

I also find it sort of ironic that it seems like most people who complain about the A-bombs being dropped on Japan are not Japanese, but are mainly European. At least, it seems this way from posts I have seen on the internet and people I have talked to. It is especially ironic since the USA saved them from the Nazis or Soviets, if they live a bit west of where Berlin is. I've been to Hiroshima, one of my best friends is from Hiroshima, my girlfriend was born in Hiroshima, and none of them hate me or the USA for dropping the bomb on Japan. They understand the reason behind it. My grandfather flew a bomber for the USAAF during the war, and they don't hate me or my grandfather as well. They understand that my grandfather was only doing his job, and I had nothing to do with it. We need to put things into perspective here. This is also why I find it rediculous that a lot of Chinese and Koreans still hate the Japanese for things done during WWII. Almost no one alive today in Japan had anything to do with those events...

All in all, I think some things we need to think about are:
1) If Truman went ahead with an invasion, which would take many, many, american (and japanese) lives, and then the American public found out that Truman could have used the a-bomb on Japan to end the war without risking american lives... how would have THAT played out?
2) If the Americans didn't end the war there and then, would the Soviets have invaded through Hokkaido , and would we have a North Japan and South Japan, much like the North and South Korea Today? (we kind of actually have this situation with the Russians STILL occupying the 2 Japanese islands north of Hokkaido even today)

There is no question that it was a terrible toll on human life to use the atomic bombs, no question there... but what would have been the alternative?
 
2) If the Americans didn't end the war there and then, would the Soviets have invaded through Hokkaido, and would we have a North Japan and South Japan, much like the North and South Korea Today? (we kind of actually have this situation with the Russians STILL occupying the 2 Japanese islands north of Hokkaido even today)

do you know the battle of Russo-japan after WW2?

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGjkyZU2oY
 
Today's the 62nd anniversary of the Hiroshima bomb, and hope that nobody ever forgets what happened there.

IMO has no meaning to talk about why it happened because I guess everyone has their own opinions about it. So far more important than that is that we should know what happened.

Let's hope something like this will never happen again, and that people have learned what happened there... For everyone who will visit Japan, this is a place that you should visit in my opinion...

Peace, I think you will have a better understanding of this meaning after you have been to the museum in there.
 
it is necessary to drop the bomb, more deaths would occur if they were to invade japan mainland... just imagine the kamikazes....
 
Just finished this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B6qFlks6Rig

Posting it here because of two things...

1) I was Googling to see if I could find some quotes related to the events to add to the Youtube comments and stumbled on this topic in Google (didn't add any quote though)

2) Now that I'm here, I would like to know if this is worthy of a tribute/memorial montage for this. ...and if I should have added or left something out. For example, I didn't want to include harsh or shocking images in gore and mutilation, because it isn't supposed to shock or in some cases (sadly) entertain people. Kind of wondering too if this gets the message across in the right way it is meant to be.
 
Other horrors Of WW-II: Hiroshima & Nagasaki

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I always suprised that the fireboming of Japanese cities is rarely mentioned.

On March 09-1945 the firebombing of Tokyo occured. The death toll was at least 80,000, and perhaps exceeded 100,000. This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and the firebombing of Dresden.


There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26-1945.
 
-
I am always surprised that the firebombing of Japanese cities is rarely mentioned.
On March 09-1945, the firebombing of Tokyo occurred. The death toll was at least 80,000 and perhaps exceeded 100,000. This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and the firebombing of Dresden.
There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26-1945.

FYI: I started a thread about the firebombing of Tokyo. It is sad, but true, and should never be forgotten.

 
A 20-year old female Japanese student @ Akita International University of Akita Prefecture ( in Japan ) wrote ....


アメリカが広島・長崎に原爆を投下したか。それはその行為に利益があったから。20億を投資した研究の実験結果のためでもあり、北海道を欲していたロシアへの牽制もある。

同様に日本だって731部隊の細菌兵器によう中国人の無差別大量虐殺を始めとする陵辱行為をしてきた。

America's A-bombs dropped in Hiroshima & Nagasaki,act of self-interest.Experimental result of a $20 billion ( in Japanese yen calculation ) research cost, restrained Russia's desire of Hokkaido .

Similarly to Japan's genocide of Chinese indiscriminately done in the germ weapon lab of 731 ( in Manchuria ).
 
Baka Gaijin. I agree with you. USA knew the concequences and dropped first Hiroshima and saw what happened then Nagasaki prior to the bombings Japan was already ready to surrender thus making the A-Bombs one of the worst humanitarian crimes in world history ranking right up there with the genocide of the Native Americans, Slavery, Holocaust, Nanking.
 
Baka Gaijin. I agree with you. USA knew the concequences and dropped first Hiroshima and saw what happened then Nagasaki prior to the bombings Japan was already ready to surrender thus making the A-Bombs one of the worst humanitarian crimes in world history ranking right up there with the genocide of the Native Americans, Slavery, Holocaust, Nanking.

Where's your proof that Japan was already about to surrender before the a-bombs were dropped?
 
the greatest and ugliest genocide of the modern world....
i wonder how the Japanese and the Americans can still manage to be friends now days after hearing what history has to tell bout the American evil deeds. if i was Japanese i would have hidden hate against the Americans.
not that i am preaching hate, the complete contrast.. what i am saying is i admire the Japanese for their power to forgive....i cant do the same neither will i ever do.
 
Although this is an old post, I find it relevant to resurrect it if only for the sole reason that, as I have stated in previous posts, that "history is written by the victors" and that those too young to know or understand, will never know the truth if the "comittee of 'they' (ie your government) do not want you to know it.

I find it quite interesting that the most horrendous atrocity in modern history was comitted 63 years ago yesterday and tomorrow, and not one single person commented on it on a forum of the only country to be bombed by nuclear weapons where thousands of innocent civiliens were extingusished in a nanosecond. Not one person! How sad and pitiful as most people here seemed to be concerned only about idols, music, anime, work, rights of foreigners in Japan, etc., etc..

Nor did I even hear it on any of the major news media of the US save for a one-time blurb here and there on a few major stations. It should of been the lead news of every major news media outlet in the world. But nary a word was mentioned in the media or, especially on Jref! And not even the president of the US who is on an "Asian Tour". Very sad.

I guess everything I have read and researched about conspiracies and the control of the comittee of "they" and the power they have to change public opinion and education is true as no one even mentioned it, not only on this site, but a few others concerning Japan that I also visit.

It is very sad how people are so easily brainwashed into thinking about other things. In a matter of years I guess most will be even questioning whether the A-bombing ever occured and they will be so brainwashed and not taught the real history that it will become a myth.

I really feel sorry for the brainwashed sheeple that are being reared today as they will only believe what they are taught or what they are fed in 7 second sound bites on TV and never do any research on their own, and for those that do, they will be considered "nuts" living on the "lunatic fringe". I can see it 50 or even a hundred years from now someone saying, "Japan was bombed by nuclear weapons about 150 years ago and the sheeple saying, "You are nuts! If that was true it would've been taught to us and we would hear it on the news. You don't know what you are talking about!"

Yes, it's very sad that not a single post was made concerning the most horrific atrocity in modern history.

And please save me the BS that millions of lives were saved because the US did what they did. The fact is not a single person even knew of the destructive power of nuclear weapons at the time and their aftermath for those that survived. Their thinking was just that it was a very powerful bomb and they tested it on Japan much to their chagrin.
 
Its kind of interesting when one of these old threads come up and you can see what you wrote about over 5 years ago. I think this was one of the first threads I posted on after becoming a member.

I don't know how much you can read into the fact that nobody else made a post on the subject this year. Looking over the history of this thread its obvious that lots of people have made comments over the years on the subject and it may simply be that nobody felt they had anything to add to what they had previously written.

IN my case, reading over what I wrote about the subject five years ago (on the first page of this thread), I think my opinion has probably changed a bit since then.

At the same time though I don't think I really want to get back into the whole justified/not justified debate, which sometimes just descends into the message board equivalent of people trying to shout over each other to no real purpose. Suffice it to say that the bombings had horrific effects on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the important thing is to hope that nuclear weapons are never used again.
 
Pachipro,

I'm going to preamble this with the statement that I respect you a lot. And I agree that this is a generation of kids raised on soundbites and more interested in anime and pop idols.

I will also state that I am a historian and have studied World War II and many other periods of history. I have been, until recently, knee-deep in the American academic liberal arts world. With that being said, I will now tackle some of your statements.

Firstly:
Pachipro said:
I guess everything I have read and researched about conspiracies and the control of the committee of "they" and the power they have to change public opinion and education is true as no one even mentioned it, not only on this site but a few others concerning Japan that I also visit.

As I said, I have spent a great deal of time in academia--indeed, I have made it my life. The historical community is quite politically liberal. Such voices as Howard Zinn's scathing A People's History of the United States are much more representative of the social sciences than the output of your standard-issue conservative think-tank. Historians have come to consider the atomic bomb as a horrible sin from which the United States will never be redeemed.

Secondly, I believe people have lost perspective on things. Today, we view the war in a different way than they did during the forties. Indeed, for some reason, the war against the Nazis and the bombing of Dresden are overshadowed by Japan's destruction. I would argue that because the Germans were white Europeans and ostensibly Christian, the wholesale slaughter of German civilians by Allied forces (as perpetrated both by Soviets and the British infantry units, as well as by Allied bombing raids) has been ignored, even though more German civilians were killed than Japanese. Indeed, the Japanese slaughtered more Chinese, Koreans, and Manchurians than the Nazis killed Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals. But because they were not white, liberal arts scholars deem their crimes to have been forgettable in the face of American bombing.

The truth is that it was a war. As a historian, I must attempt to, as Thucydides advised, suppress my political ideologies and seek to demonstrate an event's truth. To that end, I try to regard war neutrally. Civilians have always been casualties in war. It's a sad but true fact. And war is an incredible evil. But sometimes, as the ancients understood well, a bad war is better than a worse peace. All of Chamberlain's proclamations of "peace in our time" in the 1930s were rendered moot by Dunkirk.

You can make these moral pontifications about "history written by the victors", but as a historian, I have to emphasize that statement's fallaciousness. There are plenty of accounts by the losers extant, especially in modern history. And, indeed, although Japan lost, their history books are surprisingly bereft of accounts of the atrocities they committed. In contrast, your average American history textbook for high school elaborates atrocities perpetrated by Americans against Natives Americans and the controversies and crimes of the Vietnam War. Indeed, the so-called "winners" have recently begun to delve into the histories of the "losers" and a deep interest in "marginalized factions" has grown in historical study, with the result of a proliferation of information regarding the deeds and accounts of the "defeated," especially if the defeated were literate societies and left records that were preserved despite the outcome of the conflict.

As a result, we have an obvious picture of what precipitated the dropping of the atomic bombs. However, political ideologies obfuscate the truth of the bombings. I want to point you to Plain Speaking, a biography of Harry Truman, if you want to know why he bombed Japan--to end the war, plain and simple. Maybe the generals, politicians and other leaders had numerous other reasons. Still, the result was the same--a horrific and destructive war was brought to a sudden and decisive conclusion. The U.S. economy was beginning to suffer from the fighting, soldiers were exhausted, and the casualty projections for Operation Olympic were exorbitant. Nobody cared if innocent Japanese civilians were going to die in the bombings, that much is true. They didn't care because they were at war, a War Without Mercy (cf. book by John Dower), mutually waged by both sides.

Was the bombing evil? Absolutely. Then again, war is evil, and those who fight wars often do whatever it takes to win. I don't think you, nor I, have much of a right to judge whether or not it was justified, especially since we were not present at Hiroshima or Nagasaki, nor were we present at Nanking, nor were we waiting to be the first off the landing craft at the beaches of Kyushu (a veritable death-sentence).

And as a final note, the old argument that the bombs were dropped to scare the Soviets is specious since it assumes that the Soviets were a joke (as is often assumed these days) and that the entire Cold War was a political farce perpetrated by the likes of Linden Johnson and Ronald Reagan. These assumptions could not be further from the truth. Stalin had made an alliance with Hitler over Poland--an alliance that Hitler foolishly betrayed--proving his untrustworthiness. The Berlin Blockade and subsequent invasions of southeastern European nations prove that the Soviets were aggressive and belligerent and that the "free world" had cause to fear them. They raped and massacred a bloody swathe through Eastern Germany en route to Berlin, and carried their bloodlust to the Japanese in Sakhalin and other territories previously held by the Japanese Imperial government. You are damn right we wanted to scare the Soviets, because it was quite possible that World War III would be fought against them, and very soon after World War II had just ended.
 
I'm about to commit a grave sacrilege by reviving a thread that was started 19 years ago. I found it while working on the database and thought it would be interesting in the light of that fact that last summer saw the 75th anniversary of dropping the atomic bombs on Japan and that since this thread was active a lot of new literature on the topic has been published.

Some of those books are listed below (no affiliate links):

Below an interview with Lesley M.M. Blume:

"I have been enormously disturbed for the last four or five years by the unprecedented assault on our free press and the designation of journalists as 'enemies of the people,'" she said. She was searching for a historical narrative tied to World War II when her husband suggested she look into how Hiroshima and Nagasaki were covered in the immediate aftermath. That idea bloomed into "Fallout: The Hiroshima Cover-Up and the Reporter Who Revealed it to the World," a behind-the-scenes look at what it took for John Hersey, author of "Hiroshima," and his editors at the New Yorker to tell the true story of what really happened when America dropped its atomic bombs.

 
For those of us that have served or still in the military, sorry to say this, but if your enemy is out to kill you ( Pearl Harbor ) you must kill them by all means in warfare. And that is the harsh reality of war. Although I really feel War Is A Racket, and I truly mean that unless the country is being attacked.
 
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