Untidiable?

[The7thSamurai]

Hey everyone, got this sentence from my text:

The children are messing about on the train, then the mother gives them some snacks...子供たちはそのときだけちょっと大人しくなあ 閧ﾜすが、空き缶や紙くずは片付けません

What does the 空き缶や紙くずは片付けません part mean? Is 片付けません the transitive verb 片付ける or the potential form of 片付く? If it's the former, then what's the significance of the object being marked by は? If it's the latter then it must mean something like "untidiable" if the は particle is used.

Any thoughts?

 

[undrentide]

Hey everyone, got this sentence from my text:

The children are messing about on the train, then the mother gives them some snacks...子供たちはそのときだけちょっと大人しくなりますが、空き缶や紙くずは片付けません

What does the 空き缶や紙くずは片付けません part mean? Is 片付けません the transitive verb 片付ける or the potential form of 片付く? If it's the former, then what's the significance of the object being marked by は? If it's the latter then it must mean something like "untidiable" if the は particle is used.

Any thoughts?

片付けません is negative form of 片付けます.
は here has nothing to do with potential form.
It simply makes contrast between two things - like
リンゴは好きだがミカンは嫌いだ。

 

[The7thSamurai]

Ahh it does too! I totally forgot about the whole comparing は!

Thanks!

 

[Elizabeth]

Ahh it does too! I totally forgot about the whole comparing は!

Thanks!

Most likely it would have been the same は with the potential of 付く....

 

[undrentide]

Bucko and Elizabeth, could you please give me some examples of this "potential" and the particle は?
If it is intransitive verb 片付かない then I can understand it can be interpreted as potential ゴミはなかなか片付かない = untidiable, but when the verb is transitive, I cannot think of potential unless I add られない （片付けられない）. I'm confused...

 

[The7thSamurai]

Undrentide, is there are difference between このコンピューターは使えません and このコンピューターを使えません?

I was taught that the first one means "this computer is useless/this computer is unusable" and the second one means "I can't use this computer".

 

[Elizabeth]

Undrentide, is there are difference between このコンピューターは使えません and このコンピューターを使えません?

I was taught that the first one means "this computer is useless/this computer is unusable" and the second one means "I can't use this computer".

You'd have to tell us more under which context you're operating since 私(に)は can as easily be the topic marker for #1 as #2. 私は、日本語は話せません。私はそばは食べられない、、、etc.

Computer is useless/unusable for absolute clarity I would say is broken or under repair.

 

[nekocat]

wa: topic marker
wo: object marker

dekimasu/...emasu usually take "wa," but "wo" is also possible.

 

[The7thSamurai]

You'd have to tell us more under which context you're operating since

My English translation didn't give away the context? Anyway, here's a previous post where we discussed eru/rareru in the "has/has not the quality of" form:

"I can't eat this garbage!"

How about this situation, someone puts a cup of dirty looking water in front of you and says to drink...you say これ（は）、飲めるか？？

Wonder if that'd be a natural response?

 

[nekocat]

In your sentence either は or を is OK.

 

[The7thSamurai]

In your sentence either は or を is OK.

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about Nekocat. Changing the は and を will change the meaning of the sentence, so, depending on the intended meaning, they can't simply be substituted.

 

[Gurauki]

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about Nekocat. Changing the は and を will change the meaning of the sentence, so, depending on the intended meaning, they can't simply be substituted.

Not really. は has always been debated by meaning. And i learned the way i see は from the documents found on this site. Recall the example "私はうなぎだ" and you'll see why は is also correct. From what i've see, は is used in compound particles more than any other particle (from my experience). This is because は most easily translates as "as for." Take this compound particle for example, "東京には行きます。" Of course, 東京に would be preferred without the は, but は can still be included, making the concept of 東京に implied in all future sentences until something else is specified. Hence why it's called the "topic marker." We don't have a "topic marker" in english, so we use "as for" instead. It's like how japanese don't have gerunds, we don't have a は. All concepts can be explained in any language, but in different ways. What a language lacks is made up for by something else. That in particular, is why (when you look at my japanese) I'll use はin obscure places, but i use が like it's some kind of religious practice. I use が a lot, because when i say something or someone does something or something is done to that, i want to to make sure the meaning is clear. は doesn't make the meaning clear.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about Nekocat. Changing the は and を will change the meaning of the sentence, so, depending on the intended meaning, they can't simply be substituted.

You didn't give an intended meaning...so what are we supposed to say ?
All nekocat was providing were two grammatically possible responses.

I personally prefer これが飲めない

 

[Gurauki]

I personally prefer これが飲めない

Capable of drinking it? Personally, if some one sat a cup of dirty water in front of me i would say, "それを飲みたい！？駄目な～！行ってくれ！又、あんたの水欲しくないな！" No one just walks up to you and gives you dirty water and orders you to drink it. I'll tell you what, that boy be takin' a hike really fast.

 

[Elizabeth]

Capable of drinking it? Personally, if some one sat a cup of dirty water infront of me i would say, "それを飲みたい！？駄目な～！行ってくれ！又、あんたの水欲しくないな！" No one just walks up to you and gives you dirty water and orders you to drink it. I'll tell you what, that boy be takin' a hike really fast.

That sounds really unnatural to me.

これ，ダメだよね。
（もし）私がこれ(は、を）飲むと思うなら、とんでもない(話だ)。
If you think that I'm drinking this, you've got another thing coming...(maybe).


あんな物を飲むなんて正気じゃないよ(どうかしてるよ）。 Where's your mind ??? It's insane drinking stuff like that...


Anyway, sorry Bucko-san, to get just slightly off-topic there. ますます話がわからなくなってきましたね。:sorry:

 

[epigene]

Undrentide, is there are difference between このコンピューターは使えません and このコンピューターを使えません?

I was taught that the first one means "this computer is useless/this computer is unusable" and the second one means "I can't use this computer".

I don't have the time to follow the entire thread, but just to let you know that you're right!

In modern colloquialism, このコンピューターは使えません becomes このコンピューター使えね～
In this case, the computer is not necessarily broken. This phrase can be used to suggest that the computer does not meet my needs (low performance, necessary software not installed, etc.).

このコンピューターを使えません。
Although you may already know it, let me add that this can be used when you (or someone else) want to use it but there is an obstacle that bars you/someone from using it (such as lack of ability on your part, prohibited by a higher authority, etc.).

There might be other uses, but these come up right off the bat.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I use が alot, because when i say something or someone does something or something is done to that, i want to to make sure the meaning is clear. は dosn't make the meaning clear.

How long have you been speaking Japanese? That's the first time I've heard someone say that about が. From my understanding, doing what you've just said would simply be shifting the focus of the sentence from the verb to the subject. Why would that necessarily make the meaning clearer?

You didn't give an intended meaning...so what are we supposed to say ?
All nekocat was providing were two grammatically possible responses.

I suspected Nekocat simply hadn't learnt that particular grammar point regarding the potential form so I wanted to make sure she understood what I was going on about before kindly correcting me or offering advice.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I don't have the time to follow the entire thread, but just to let you know that you're right!

Ah, good! Thanks

Here are some examples off the top of my head:
これは飲めない this is undrinkable
これは食べられない this is inedible
このテレビは直せない this TV is unfixable

I suppose in all cases you could subsitite the は for なんて too, given the negative nuance.

 

[Elizabeth]

I suspected Nekocat simply hadn't learnt that particular grammar point regarding the potential form so I wanted to make sure she understood what I was going on about before kindly correcting me or offering advice.

日本語は彼女の母国語ですね。

 

[Elizabeth]

Ah, good! Thanks
Here are some examples off the top of my head:
これは飲めない this is undrinkable
これは食べられない this is inedible
このテレビは直せない this TV is unfixable

I suppose in all cases you could substitute the は for なんて too, given the negative nuance.

And I've seen many, many hundreds of cases where は + potential means "I cannot eat, drink, use this...." etc

 

[Gurauki]

How long have you been speaking Japanese? That's the first time I've heard someone say that about が. From my understanding, doing what you've just said would simply be shifting the focus of the sentence from the verb to the subject. Why would that necessarily make the meaning clearer?

For a year. Think of the sentance "鮫は食べた。" Was the shark eaten by a man or was *SOMETHING* eaten by the shark? Only previous sentances can tell you what may have happened. Now, if we use が or を instead, that makes it clearer. "鮫を食べた" means "Some one ate the shark meat." Or "鮫が食べた" "the shark ate it..."

 

[Elizabeth]

For a year. Think of the sentance "鮫は食べた。" Was the shark eaten by a man or was *SOMETHING* eaten by the shark? Only previous sentances can tell you what may have happened. Now, if we use が or を instead, that makes it clearer. "鮫を食べた" means "Some one ate the shark meat." Or "鮫が食べた" "the shark ate it..."

If you want to make it perfectly clear out of context it was you that ate the shark (and to emphasize it was not something else) add an additional subject or topic marker so that it becomes 私は鮫は食べた。

Or to emphasize the subject, 鮫は私が食べた。(As for that shark, I am the one that ate it.) It may be slightly unnatural in real speech but for a beginner it's better than not knowing what が and は are saying and coming across with something completely differently than you intended.

OR stick in an object, which is necessary anyway to include the idea that "something" was eaten by the shark. 鮫はそれを(何かを。。)食べた。

Sentences with potential subject/object confusion like this are one in a million. Contexts vague enough to allow multiple interpretations where it is up to the speaker to send the intended message through the appropriate particle can include almost everything.

 

[undrentide]

Undrentide, is there are difference between このコンピューターは使えません and このコンピューターを使えません?

I was taught that the first one means "this computer is useless/this computer is unusable" and the second one means "I can't use this computer".

Bucko san, thank you for writing the example and sorry for my belated reply.

What flummoxed me is 片付けない and potential, but I'll forget about it now.
Now with your example of potential form of 使う（使える・使えない）, I see your point and agree that the interpretation is correct and valid.

But I also think it is possible to have more general idea about は vs が or を.
は is used when you're picking something out of others. (In other words, it implies there are other options though not mentioned.)
が (subject) or を (object) is just focusing the one thing you're talking about.

このコンピューターは使えません
This computer cannot be used.
(Maybe other computer works.)

On hearing this, one assumes that it is the computer, not the user who has the problem. So it does not work for anyone.
Focus is on the fact that comes after は.

このコンピューターが使えません
このコンピューターを使えません
Cannot use this computer.
It is this computer which does not work. Focus is on the part that comes before が or を.

If I hear such statements, I assume that the person who said it cannot use the computer either because the person is incapable of using that particular computer, or the person might be able to use other computers but not this particular one because it is a complicated or defective, whatever the reason.

Maybe this is also what nekocat san meant to say.

 

[Elizabeth]

このコンピューターは使えません
This computer cannot be used.
(Maybe other computer works.)

I wonder how much those interpretations can be altered, though, playing around with the context in a way that would make them more fully generalizable. For instance, if the with topic modifier pronoun この is dropped and a topic marker for the speaker added...

コンピューターは使えません
Given the implied context of 私は, for instance, this is very commonly translated into English as "I cannot use computers." Whether other people can or not is not the concern of the speaker so it is left unstated. The emphasis and implication with は is that there is something else that can be used. Is that a misleading or possibly very natural way of thinking of it?

(私は)コンピューターが使えません
(私は)コンピューターを使えません
Cannot use this computer.
It is this computer which does not work. Focus is on the part that comes before が or を.

If I hear such statements, I assume that the person who said it cannot use the computer either because the person is incapable of using that particular computer, or the person might be able to use other computers but not this particular one because it is a complicated or defective, whatever the reason.

Maybe this is also what nekocat san meant to say.

Again, without the この indicating any computer in particular, are が、を not also being used to convey the message that the speaker is unable to use computers in general ? Whether anything else can be is ambiguous.


By the way, my only understanding of the difference in potential form marked by either が or を使えません is the latter sounds comes off as more like well-educated or polished speech than が ? At least I've never heard there is a difference in nuance or emphasis needed to distinguish the two.

 

[nekocat]

いつものように undrentide さんがすばらしい回答をなさったのですが、わたしなりの解説も加えさせてください。

「は」と「が」に関してはいろいろな人がいろいろな説明をしているのですが、「東大出版会」がだしている書籍にすら間違いが多いです（古いですが、特に三上という国語学者とかヒドい）。

一般に国語学者は、日本語と英語と中国語以外の外国語を学んだことのない方が多いので、自国語に対する洞察も欠けている事が多いと思います。（偉そうに聞こえますね。すみません！）実際には存在しないルールをあたかも存在しているように錯覚していることが多いようです。その結果、それを読んだ学習者が余計に頭をめぐらせなければならないという事態に陥ります。ルールは単純であればそれにこしたことはありません！

allabout.com の日本語解説も私に言わせれば「明らかに間違っている」のですが、そのような「が」「は」論が世にあふれているなか、一番学習者に良心的だと思えるのは、シンプルな意義素を抽出し、それを提示してあげることです。

が: subject marker
を: object marker
は: topic marker​

このコンピューターが使えません
このコンピューターを使えません
Cannot use this computer.
It is this computer which does not work. Focus is on the part that comes before が or を.

一般に、「が」を使った文章では潜在的に「○○は」の要素が外部にある（Φ）と考えてもいいですね。

＜私は、今朝は、認可なしでは＞このコンピューターが使えません。​

上の文では＜＞内がΦです。
あるいはこう考えてもいいでしょう。「が」を含む要素全体がトピックである、と。「このコンピューターが使えません」全体がひとつのトピックなのです。別の言い方をすれば、「このコンピューターが使えません」自体が「新事態」「あらたに伝えたいこと」なのです。中国語でいえば「了」に似ています。
一方「を」を使った文では（１）目的格であることを強調する、ことが一番の理由でしょう。また、潜在的に「は」の意味を持たせたかった可能性もあるので、そのばあいは「を」が「は」を押し出して「を」だけが顕在したので、「は」の意味も持ちます(undrentide さんが指摘なさいましたね）。

最後のところがわからなかったかたは、こう考えてください。「猫をも送る。」のように助詞「を」と「も」をこの順で連ねることは可能ですが、「猫はも好きだ。」や「猫もは好きだ」は不可能なのです。そんなときどうするか。より強調したい、意味したい方が他方を追い出すのです。だから、「猫も好きだ」となります。

「猫も好きだ」には２つの意味がありえます。（１）「猫が好きだ」プラス「猫も」、（２）「猫は好きだ」プラス「猫も」。後者では「猫」がトピックなのですが、「も」のほうが「は」より意味が強いので、「も」だけが顕在しました。「も」＞「は」で、しかも並列できない。