what's difference between these two sentences?

what's difference between these two sentences:

これわ 日本で うって いない 本です。

これわ 日本で うらない 本です。

The text book teaches the 1st one, and the 2nd one is what I came up with.

Not sure if the 2nd one is correct at all, just wondering if the 2nd one is making any sense...

Thanks in advance!!!

--max

売っていない expresses a state "not to be being sold (now)", whereas 売らない does (someone's) intention "not to sell" or "not to plan to sell."
Ah, plus, これわ should be これは.

thanks a lot...

So the 1st one may mean the book was sold in Japan before, but now it's no longer for sale or the book is not sold in Japan now?

And the 2nd one means Japan doesn't intend to sell that book...am I interpreting it right?

maxchu said:

thanks a lot...

So the 1st one may mean the book was sold in Japan before, but now it's no longer for sale or the book is not sold in Japan now?

And the 2nd one means Japan doesn't intend to sell that book...am I interpreting it right?

Click to expand...

1. Book isn't being sold (for sale) in Japan. (Now)

2. A book that ____ (some unnamed publisher or seller) won't sell in Japan. (Not that JAPAN doesn't intend to sell -- And uranai is future tense for "won't sell" or "isn't going to sell").

maxchu said:

So the 1st one may mean the book was sold in Japan before, but now it's no longer for sale or the book is not sold in Japan now?

Click to expand...

That sentence just denotes "the book isn't being sold now," as @Elizabeth -san wrote. So it could mean "the book is not sold yet."

これはもう日本で売っていない本です。
This is the book that is no longer sold in Japan.

これはまだ日本で売っていない本です。
This is the book that is not sold in Japan yet.

If you're looking for an English analog, it would be this:

1) これは日本で売っていない本です。
"They're not selling this book in Japan."

2) これは日本で売らない本です。
"They don't sell this book in Japan."

All you're doing is changing the tense between:

1) The non-past progressive tense - that is, the tense in which something is in the middle of being done. (Example: I am skiing, I will be hiking)

2) The non-past tense - that is, the tense in which something is or will be done, but not progressively (Example: I will run, [I came] to fly.)

Nall-ohki said:

If you're looking for an English analog, it would be this:

1) これは日本で売っていない本です。
"They're not selling this book in Japan."

2) これは日本で売らない本です。
"They don't sell this book in Japan."

All you're doing is changing the tense between:

1) The non-past progressive tense - that is, the tense in which something is in the middle of being done. (Example: I am skiing, I will be hiking)

2) The non-past tense - that is, the tense in which something is or will be done, but not progressively (Example: I will run, [I came] to fly.)

Click to expand...

You need to pay attention to the difference between "state verbs" and "movement verbs," though.

the sentence structures
They're not selling this book in Japan.
彼ら(出版社/著者/所有者)はこの本を日本で売っていません。

They don't sell this book in Japan.
彼ら(出版社/著者/所有者)はこの本を日本で売りません。

I wonder what the exact ones the OP wanted to say are...

Nall-ohki said:

If you're looking for an English analog, it would be this:

1) これは日本で売っていない本です。
"They're not selling this book in Japan."

2) これは日本で売らない本です。
"They don't sell this book in Japan."

All you're doing is changing the tense between:

1) The non-past progressive tense - that is, the tense in which something is in the middle of being done. (Example: I am skiing, I will be hiking)

2) The non-past tense - that is, the tense in which something is or will be done, but not progressively (Example: I will run, [I came] to fly.)

Click to expand...

2) これは日本で売らない本です。
"They don't sell this book in Japan."

Although I believe うらない translates to "will not," "don't plan to," "are not going to" etc., a future construction only, as toritoribe and I translated above.


1) これは日本で売っていない本です。
"They're not selling this book in Japan."

And there's no "they're" as an intentional subject to do the selling. As toritoribe explained, 売っていない expresses more a state of "not being sold" or "not for sale."


I hope these translations are clear despite my horrible lack of formal grammar knowledge.

Elizabeth said:

2) これは日本で売らない本です。
"They don't sell this book in Japan."

Although I believe うらない translates to "will not," "don't plan to," "are not going to" etc., a future construction only, as toritoribe and I translated above.

Click to expand...

In a vacuum, "Will not", "Don't plan to" don't work in this case - it's more information than is implied. If placed in context, they could mean this, but it is not in this case.

This is where Japanese relies on the context so much. If the publisher of a particular book was asked:

この本を日本で売るつもりですか？ - "Do you plan to release this book in Japan?"
売らない - "I don't plan to."

However, if you asked a friend if they were selling it:
この本は日本で売るんですか？ - "Do they sell this book in Japan?"
売らない - "No, they don't."

In general, I feel it's better to think of word meanings in their barest form, and then contextualize them.

Elizabeth said:

And there's no "they're" as an intentional subject to do the selling. As toritoribe explained, 売っていない expresses more a state of "not being sold" or "not for sale."

Click to expand...

It is true, but the context doesn't give it in Japanese. It is common when speaking in English to provide this context, and so a more natural translation will have these elements placed in where they are expected by the listener.

A common way of asking this in English is "Are they selling this there?" for "Is it sold there?".

The fact is, simple translation is a one-to-one mapping, but good translation is many-to-many.

Through a simple, direct translation, there is no natural Japanese phrase that would translate to "They are selling this book in Japan." Does this mean this phrase should never be used as a translation? Of course not! It is a sentence that matches the tone, intent, and naturality of the source material. Most of the time, a combination of these factors is far more important than the pure meaning.

</end translation rant>

Nall-ohki said:

In a vacuum, "Will not", "Don't plan to" don't work in this case - it's more information than is implied. If placed in context, they could mean this, but it is not in this case.

This is where Japanese relies on the context so much. If the publisher of a particular book was asked:

この本を日本で売るつもりですか？ - "Do you plan to release this book in Japan?"
売らない - "I don't plan to."

However, if you asked a friend if they were selling it:
この本は日本で売るんですか？ - "Do they sell this book in Japan?"
売らない - "No, they don't."

In general, I feel it's better to think of word meanings in their barest form, and then contextualize them.

Click to expand...

I just asked a Japanese friend about this to verify. His rough feelings and estimations : 1. "Uru/uranai" doesn't necessarily imply the future, but it is used for that meaning in perhaps 60-70%+ of cases 2. Tsumori isn't necessary to express a connotation of "plan to" 3. To be perfectly clear what is being sold/for sale at the present, you should use "utte iru/inai"

It is true, but the context doesn't give it in Japanese. It is common when speaking in English to provide this context, and so a more natural translation will have these elements placed in where they are expected by the listener.

A common way of asking this in English is "Are they selling this there?" for "Is it sold there?".

The fact is, simple translation is a one-to-one mapping, but good translation is many-to-many.

Through a simple, direct translation, there is no natural Japanese phrase that would translate to "They are selling this book in Japan." Does this mean this phrase should never be used as a translation? Of course not! It is a sentence that matches the tone, intent, and naturality of the source material. Most of the time, a combination of these factors is far more important than the pure meaning.

</end translation rant>

Click to expand...

"Are selling in" or "being sold in," at least to me, gives the definite sense of an import item, perhaps available for limited periods in the country as part of a special distribution deal. "Sold in," on the other hand, refers to the entire universe of available products.

Nall-ohki said:

In a vacuum, "Will not", "Don't plan to" don't work in this case - it's more information than is implied. If placed in context, they could mean this, but it is not in this case.

This is where Japanese relies on the context so much. If the publisher of a particular book was asked:

この本を日本で売るつもりですか？ - "Do you plan to release this book in Japan?"
売らない - "I don't plan to."

However, if you asked a friend if they were selling it:
この本は日本で売るんですか？ - "Do they sell this book in Japan?"
売らない - "No, they don't."

In general, I feel it's better to think of word meanings in their barest form, and then contextualize them.

Click to expand...

This is an "aspect" issue.

窓が開く。
窓が開いている。

椅子に座る。
椅子に座っている。

The present form (more accurately, the non-past form) of movement/action verbs can't express the simple present tense. Furthermore, 売る is an intention verb. Since 売らない is used in that sentence instead of 売っていない; the common expression as the present tense, it inevitably sounds implying someone's intention, and especially, the negative form 売らない more strongly suggests the intention not to sell, as Elizabeth-san and I explained.

正確を期すために日本語でも書くと、通常「売っていない」が一般的に使われるべき場面で敢えて「売らない」を使うことで、単純現在ではなく意思形の含意を必然的に帯びてしまう(特に否定形は)、ということですね。
Elizabethさん、上記の説明で「彼氏」にご確認を お願いします。

Nall-ohki said:

It is true, but the context doesn't give it in Japanese. It is common when speaking in English to provide this context, and so a more natural translation will have these elements placed in where they are expected by the listener.

A common way of asking this in English is "Are they selling this there?" for "Is it sold there?".

Click to expand...

So, how do you think about the difference between the two sentences below?

この本は日本で売っていません。
これは日本で売っていない本です。

Good points, you guys. I have no real arguments with what you've posted.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time at the moment to properly reply with the minutia!