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What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

Originally Posted by Glenski View Post

Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?
FrustratedDave said:
Missed this one.
Now Glenski, do you really think that because some halfwitts in their own country voting completely uninformed is grounds to let a foriegner after registering at city the right to vote, Just b/c the outcome may be the same?
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Dave,
You have it the other way around. Foreign people are not given the right to vote because locals are stupid. (That's what you wrote, but perhaps you meant something else...?)

I can't see how you missed my point. You kept harping on the fact that Japanese fluency was so important, that it was required in your mind before people could make an informed decision when voting. I pointed out that even if a person was fluent in their a language (home language in this case, for Americans), they can STILL be uninformed dolts. Bear in mind that many foreigners would actually pay closer attention to the issues by sheer virtue of being foreign, so in some cases they might even be MORE informed than a local. Not always, of course, but the point is there that language fluency is not a guarantee of intelligent voting.


And the case about Mr Idubor and his refusal of bail by the courts, this also happens to Japanese, like I have said earlier I am failing to see foriegners rights abused by the law.
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I don't see how you fail to do that. Incredulous.

People,

When we reach the point that one party says, "I don't see it. I don't believe it." over and over again, it's time to call it quits. We might just as well be comparing evolution and creationism here.
 
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anomouse said:
Emoni, you've been reported. I'm just expressing my opinion. You have no right to moderate this thread, telling people what to do.
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Telling you that stating your opinion doesn't mean anything when you have no supporting evidence, explanations, and seem to have not read the thread or understand the topic is now a reportable offense in your eyes? That's pretty sad. I guess you probably reported Orochi since he said pretty much the same thing. Anyway, enough that little drama.

Still, I recommend focusing on Orochi's statements, he's defining things clearer than I can in regards to the issues at hand that foreigners face.

Again, the reason I started this thread was to give some sort of insight into paths that foreigners might take when they run into walls and problems with Japanese law enforcement or the legal system. It has already been made clear that the Japanese police twist the law or don't follow it at times (despite what some may believe should or shouldn't be applied to foreigners), and it is a FACT that the Japanese legal system has some dangerous holes that can lead to the system tearing you apart with nothing you can do about it. In a situation like that, you MUST have some sort of knowledge of what to do. The attitude of "Hey, they are foreigners and it is their choice to come as a guest. Screw their rights legal or otherwise." is by no means helpful here especially if you someday end up in a situation where Mike Cash's post about the process becomes something you really wish you would have remembered. Don't get lost in the details too much here guys.

I'm starting to think some people have an entire image in their mind of some "gaijin" in Japan who deserves to have what is coming to him hit him as hard as possible, whether or not he is innocent or not. I'm not supporting jerks who cause trouble in Japan by this thread people, I wanted to talk about this for my sake, and the sake of others who are by no means criminals but are very aware that legal system in Japan is by no means perfect, just like any legal system (some less so).

Oh, and just so you know, I don't plan on any major bank heists in Japan. No motive other than knowledge here people.

One subject we really haven't gone over is lawyers in relation to this. Mike Cash stated that one isn't available till you've been charged with a crime. Now, I don't even have to start quoting the legal classes I took back in Japan to point out that lawyers in general are not in great supply in Japan. However, the class dealt with civil law, not criminal. I'm not sure if the same goes for criminal lawyers and prosecutors in Japan.

Let's say you are charged with something. With the 98%+ conviction rate, and a hell of a lot on the line, what would you do from this point? What if you can't afford a lawyer which would cost normally thousands due to rarity? What is commonly the next step and how would you proceed? What can you expect? How DO you defend yourself legally?
 

Just bring up your two year memory in Tokyo.
How many times the police you met twisted the law for you?
How many times they stopped you?
And how many time you were in need of calling a lawyer?

Just follow the same lifestyle of yours as then.

And about the illegal law twisting, your lawyer surely uses the great evidence as the illegal abuse of the law even after you commit other crimes.

Not all rights are granted automatically to non-Japanese, but a right, to be politically loud, is granted to anybody here. The case law was created at the turbulent Vietnam war era long before Debito got naturalized, but at least in this forum, he (debito) may be a good example that you can get naturalized.
 
Kind of late to the party here, but has anyone really gotten in trouble for the whole not carrying the gaijin card thing? The only time I've ever been asked for one when I bumped into police was when I was actually visiting Tokyo (living abroad) and was walking down a dodgy alley at about 1AM... the place the Iranians (used to?) sell drugs. I told him I didn't carry it b/c I'd be screwed if I lost it, and that my wife pretty much didn't let me take it. It was in the hotel room a block or two away. They walked me over there and had her bring it down. That was it.

I've never heard of any serious repercussions from this.
 
pipokun said:
Just bring up your two year memory in Tokyo.
How many times the police you met twisted the law for you?
How many times they stopped you?
And how many time you were in need of calling a lawyer?
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I'm not asking about the probability or assuming that every day is the same. Things happen, and legal preparedness is a good thing, because in each of the instances, especially the one about calling a lawyer, I'm quite clueless about and I'm sure almost everyone here is as well and what to do in that situation as well as what to expect.

Gaijin Punch, I believe it was Pachipro that had some trouble with the card one time, but that was quite some time ago.
 
I wrote, just b/c locals can make bad decisions , is not basis enough to allow foriegners to vote b/c they could do the same job or better. Your argument is the same as saying I should be able to play in my friends sandpit b/c I can build sand castles just as good or bad as him. But the fact remains it is his sand pit and if he wants to allow me to play in it then and only then can I. Maybe over simplified, but that what it boils down to



No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters. A native can choose to make an informed vote if he or she wants to ,but if you don't know the language or culture there is almost zero chance of making a decision that will affect the good of the country bar a lucky guess. So no matter how closely a forienger pays attention to the issues , his or her perception of what is right for this country can be seriously warped in some case due to the content of media that he or she is exposed to. And the same could be said about Japanese, but their is more chance of Japanese getting non biased reports than a forienger who can only understand English and half of what is being said in Japanese. Like I said before "it is their sand pit".

I stopped reading the Japan Times a long time ago and moved to Japanese papers, as I was not getting the full scope of what is happening in this society from that paper or other English ones. My veiws have changed considerably since then.
 
No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters.
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Hmm... surprised nobody has pointed out the complete asinine nature of this statement. I can buy the riding on ones high horse once fluency is achieved, but saying that it's necessary to make an informed decision is pretty close minded. There is tons of media coverage in many languages. In all honesty, I will be voting for the next president of the US w/o hearing too much of what he has to say directly. It's mainly due out of time restrictions that I'm limited to reading about it online and in newspapers.

I have a good idea of what a lot of Japanese politicians stand for and their policies (definitely enough to know what party I would vote for) and I don't listen to ANYTHING they say directly, despite the fact I have the ability to.

Something tells me the majority of the free world doesn't agree with you. How many million hispanics that can't string a sentence together will be voting this year in the US? How many poorly educated poor people? How many more tens of millions of educated people that just flat out suck at English? These people exist... in droves, I'm afraid. Why do they get to vote even though they clearly can't understand all the issues?

Our current President pillaged a country for financial gain. Most people smelled the pile of turds from day one of the invasion but what about those that didn't? Why did they get to vote, as clearly, they couldn't draw an informed opinion on the situation? Hopefully the extremes illustrate the holes in your statement.

stopped reading the Japan Times a long time ago and moved to Japanese papers,
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Obviously a "sum up" or any type of media coverage of issues is not going to carry the full scope of all issues. This is how the world is today though, and there's no escaping it. Saying that the Japanese papers are any better than the English ones though, is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi. Fact is, they're both unhealthy.
 
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Voting? What does voting have to do with legal rights and being stopped by the police? I don't think anyone ever said anything about foreigners needing voting rights... Am I missing something?
 
Emoni said:
Voting? What does voting have to do with legal rights and being stopped by the police? I don't think anyone ever said anything about foreigners needing voting rights... Am I missing something?
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Please use the quote feature.
 
FrustratedDave said:
No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters.
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Sorry, Dave, but language fluency (whatever a country may define of its voters) is not prerequisite whatsoever for any measure of intelligent voting. It is only a prerequisitie for voting. Period. How intelligent or fugged up a decision maker you are, the government can't regulate.

A native can choose to make an informed vote if he or she wants to ,but if you don't know the language or culture there is almost zero chance of making a decision that will affect the good of the country
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I guess it depends on how well/badly one "knows the language" and stays on top of the issues, as I implied earlier.

Or, do you believe the millions of U.S. voters who put bad Presidents in office were intelligent yet simply not fluent in English?

but their is more chance of Japanese getting non biased reports than a forienger who can only understand English and half of what is being said in Japanese.
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Let's agree to disagree on this one, ok? We're not going to go anywhere if you believe Japanese media is unbiased.

Emoni,
No, you're not missing anything. Dave is going off on a tangent, and I thought you didn't care. He has gone from legal rights when facing the police, to having high Japanese fluency to be able to deal with them, to using that same fluency to making informed voting decisions in Japan.

Hey, it's not my thread!
 
GaijinPunch: Quoting feature? Why? I don't see a reason in that case.

Glenski: Anyway, while I have followed most of Frustrated Dave's "erratic changes in flow" and see where language CAN have an effect on interaction with police and such (but not quite in the degree or method he is stating) but I'm at a loss with the voting issue being connected. I'm wondering if Dave could make some sort of connection I'm missing.

Oh, and again, does anyone know about the situation after you are accused of a crime or when you need to deal with a lawyer and the process in that regard? That is still something that I think many are unsure of (I know I am) and I would hope that someone who does know could toss in some information about.
 
Emoni said:
GaijinPunch: Quoting feature? Why? I don't see a reason in that case.
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B/c you were apparently addressing Dave, right after my post. Was pretty sure, but wanted to be 100% sure you weren't asking me.


Not quite sure what you're referring to. You're basically accused of a crime when you're arrested, although may not (and likely will not) be indicted for some 3 odd weeks. You might get to see your attourney in there somewhere, but it will most definitely not be before a drawn out interrogation.

I have a couple of friends that are going through the court system now. One has VERY high level of Japanese and is doing most of the leg work (their attourney is average at best, they say). I'll try to post some info on it, or a link to the Japan Times as I think they're covering it. Would be nice to add to the thread.
 
And a lot of that media is biased. And speaking the language is a prerequisite if you are foriegn and want to vote.

GaijinPunch said:
I have a good idea of what a lot of Japanese politicians stand for and their policies (definitely enough to know what party I would vote for) and I don't listen to ANYTHING they say directly, despite the fact I have the ability to.
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And next the foriegner could possibly say the same thing dispite only being here a few months. Does that make you qualified to make decisions that may affect the Japanese people?

Is that so? So non citizens can vote in the US? I don't think so. You obviously have no idea what we are disscussing here so untill you read the thread properly .... If you want to vote in Japan become a citizen, or I suggest you read the thread instead of making assumptions about what people are saying. The difference is they(hispanics) are citizens. And as stated before citizen have every right to make half witted decisons if they feel like they want to.

No holes from where I am standing, why should foriegners be allowed to vote? Answer that?


Obviously a "sum up" or any type of media coverage of issues is not going to carry the full scope of all issues. This is how the world is today though, and there's no escaping it. Saying that the Japanese papers are any better than the English ones though, is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi. Fact is, they're both unhealthy.[/QUOTE] So you would know then? The fact that Japanese papers are better than the English ones for getting un-biased info? Somehow I doubt you read the Japnese papers then.
 
It is if you are advocating rights for foriengers to vote. Like I said before if you become a citizen you need not know one word of Japanese for all I care, but if you have earned the right to become one then so be it. But then this is another issue of people knowing basic Japanese before they are allowed to become citizens and if it should be a prerequisitie to becomeing a citizen.

Glenski said:
I guess it depends on how well/badly one "knows the language" and stays on top of the issues, as I implied earlier.

Or, do you believe the millions of U.S. voters who put bad Presidents in office were intelligent yet simply not fluent in English?
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They are citizens so how ever bad their Engilsih or decisions were they have earned the right to that bad decision.(however much I disagree with this however.)

Glenski said:
Let's agree to disagree on this one, ok? We're not going to go anywhere if you believe Japanese media is unbiased.
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It is less biased the the foriegn media in Japan.(thats my opinion)

I see.
 
And speaking the language is a prerequisite if you are foriegn and want to vote.
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100% untrue. There are plenty of people that can't speak (and definitely not read) past a very menial level that have PR, and that allows you to vote in local elections. Besides, your swooping statement goes beyond Japan... at least it sounded so.

Is that so? So non citizens can vote in the US? I don't think so.
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Citizens don't have to speak English.

No holes from where I am standing, why should foriegners be allowed to vote? Answer that?
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I never said they should... only pointed out the idiocy of your statement that only someone fluent in the language of that country should be able to vote. Basically your statements are the same as those that have tried to control the voting population throughout history. You know... white men that prevented blacks and women from voting in the US? Hawaiin governments that only granted voting power to land owners. Great, noble people like that.
 
Is it time again for me to point out to moderators how far this thread had gone off topic?

Not to mention that Dave seems to be just saying that "this is my opinion", so he feels confident he has refuted everyone. Moebius loop. Broken record. Off topic.
 

I'm definitely curious to find out more about the process, and if you could find more information and the link you wanted to post, that would be perfect for this thread.
 
From the U.S. Dept. of State:

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110a.html
Arrest procedures: the first 72 hours
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110b.html

Additional link on attorneys you are entitled to (as of 2006).
Plus the theoretical right to a speedy trial defined.
http://japan.usembassy.gov/pdfs/wwwfarrestsup.pdf
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110h.html

Under investigation: The next 20 days (again from the U.S. Dept. of State).
Plus daily life in jail:
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110c.html

Indictment and the trial. (yup, the state department):
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110d.html

daily life in the detention center
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110e.html

sentencing, appeals, deportation
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110f.html

prison life
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110g.html
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-159095.html (firsthand experience by a foreigner; see also Amnesty International for more)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA22/004/1998/en/dom-ASA220041998en.html

more on "human rights" related to arrests and prison conditions
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/eap/709.htm

Those infamous "police duties execution laws" (beginning on page 35) from the Japan National Police Agency itself:
http://www.npa.go.jp/english/seisaku7/hourei1-4.pdf

More from the NPA:
http://www.npa.go.jp/english/index.htm



Or if you just want to go to wikipedia (citations and sources needed):
Criminal justice system of Japan - Wikipedia
 
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GaijinPunch said:
100% untrue. There are plenty of people that can't speak (and definitely not read) past a very menial level that have PR, and that allows you to vote in local elections. Besides, your swooping statement goes beyond Japan... at least it sounded so.
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Which is another issue of should people have to pass a test to get PR, I know some countries do do that. But that discussion is for another thread. Again re-read the thread, citizens are another topic, my statements are restricted to foriegner voting in a country that is no theirs. And America is no different. Like I said before anyone can make a dumb *** decision, but it is their right if they are a citizen. Do I agree with that, NO. But it is a free world isn't it?



Exactly and if you become a citizen you can vote and is your right to vote.If you had followed the thread you will see I never said that it should or is a prerequisitie to be able to vote. Now I will spell it out for you so you don't get confussed. We are talking about foriegners rights and the topic came up on foriengers should be allowed to vote, and I said that if you want to be able to vote as a forienger, it was my opinion that you should at least be fluent in the language as a benchmark for foriegners to be able to vote.From their the discussion begain that you seemed to conveniently choose not to read. My oppinion is that non-zainichi foriegners should not be allowed to vote.(I am not going to comment on the zainichi as I don't have evnough information to do so) Maybe if a their was a set of requirments like time frame that a foriegner was here, language ability ect, ect that it MAY be ok for foriegners to vote, but I am not sure on that one either.

Differing rights for citizens is a different topic all together, and don't go putting words in my mouth and try to compare my statements with people who in the past have tried to control voting.

Gaijinpunch , if you are going to take my comments out of context without reading the rest of the thread, don't comment as I don't appreciate to insinuations that you are throwing around.
 
FrustratedDave said:
But that discussion is for another thread. Again re-read the thread, citizens are another topic, my statements are restricted to foriegner voting in a country that is no theirs.
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Dave, I respectfully ask that you reread the thread's OP.

The topic is not voting. It is about dealing with the police and related law concerns as a foreigner.

But, this is not my thread... Emoni?
 
Glenski said:
Dave, I respectfully ask that you reread the thread's OP.

The topic is not voting. It is about dealing with the police and related law concerns as a foreigner.

But, this is not my thread... Emoni?
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I'm one of the most flexible-minded person on this forum when it comes to related topics I think, but when things are totally unrelated, they simply are unrelated and you haven't actually explained why you are talking about voting and voting rights on a legal thread or how it connects. Glenski is right on this. (Although, I'm hoping he's not standing around a corner to scream "LOCK IT!!!" again!)

Then again I'm not a mod or anything (nor want to be), but I do hope that people would please show an effort not to derail things as there is plenty of things legal related (in a huge broad array) to talk about.
 
Nope. Have not even reported this to the mods. That's YOUR responsibility. I just vote that we don't respond to off-topic posts. That's my policy on this one now.

Then again I'm not a mod or anything (nor want to be), but I do hope that people would please show an effort not to derail things as there is plenty of things legal related (in a huge broad array) to talk about.
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Don't hold your breath.
 
Well, most of what I'm hoping for now is someone might have a personal story or experience with a lawyer or incident in Japan which required going past the "accused" aspect. I know Pachipro had a run in with some hash issues, but I don't know if he mentioned actually seeking a lawyer or how that went. If anyone else has any stories I think that would give an idea.
 
Emoni,
I hope you realize that any "run-ins" will probably cover a large area of miscellaneous offenses, mostly minor. I've been curious from the very start. Just what sort of broken laws are you interested in, and why? You could probably hear various reports of traffic offenses and noisy neighbors, etc., but I doubt you'll see much on rape, murder, grand larceny, and other major crimes.
 
I would've answered you post sooner, but JREF has a tendancy of not showing new posts if you are answering another after a set time limit, so I missed it.

In my case, Emoni, I was not informed that I was allowed to seek the advice of a lawyer after being arrested even though I was allowed to according to my wife and Japanese law! We don't remember who gave us the list of English speaking lawyers, the American Embassy or the Japanese police. When my wife was freed with no charges she sought a Japanese lawyer who spoke fluent English, but she does not remember where the list came from.

After I was indicted, he spoke for me and got me bail to the tune of 1 million yen at 10%. His fee was 300,000 yen for the entire case (remember we are going back 20 years). He advised me to plead guilty, apologize profusely, and that I would probably be given a suspended sentence and allowed to stay in country. He was right as even though I was sentenced to 7 years at hard labor, it was suspended for three years provided I did not commit another crime. I was not deported and even though I left the country that same year because I planned to, I was still allowed back into the country every year since.

To be quite honest, he did absolutely nothing for me save for the fact that he was Japanese and spoke for me when I was quite fluent in Japanese anyway, but maybe that was enough. Therefore, I suggest one get an English speaking Japanese lawyer if one is arrested. And remember, you ARE allowed a lawyer before questioning. They will not tell you, but you probably have to ask.

My light sentence could be because I was married to a Japanese woman. I do not know. What I do know is that three of my friends (two US and one Australian) who were also arrested in the same sting that had Japanese wives were allowed to stay in country.

However, one person, from England, who I met on this forum last year because of my thread, who was busted for marajuana in Japan as an English teacher in 2005, not married to a Japanese woman and was not deported but left Japan on his own a year later, was not allowed back into Japan when he tried to go back a few months ago. He was informed at the airport that he couldn't come back to Japan for 50 years and was sent back home! Unbelievable! He is now living in Hong Kong.

I do not know what the rules are, but it seems if you have a Japanese wife/spouse, you are not penalized as a single person is who has no ties to Japan.

I wonder if anyone else has any information on anything similar.

Why is it that those with Japanese spouses are given lieniency and not deported, but those who are single are severely punished and not allowed back into Japan even though they were not deported?

I suspect I know what the answer is, but it would be interesting to hear others' views and/or experiences.
 
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