Two subjects with "wa" in the same sentence...

northpaw · 14 Feb 2009

Hello everyone!

If I were to use a sentence that had two subjects and thus two "wa" particles, would I write it like (note romaji here):

Watashi-wa wakarimasu anata-wa sugoi desu.

That may be correct but for some reason I don't feel like it is. Keep in mind I am very much a beginner.

Doomo!

Mikawa Ossan · 14 Feb 2009

northpaw said:
Hello everyone!
If I were to use a sentence that had two subjects and thus two "wa" particles, would I write it like (note romaji here):
Watashi-wa wakarimasu anata-wa sugoi desu.
That may be correct but for some reason I don't feel like it is. Keep in mind I am very much a beginner.
Doomo!

What do you intend for this sentence to mean? That will help in giving you an answer.

northpaw · 14 Feb 2009

"I know you are cool."

Ashikaga · 14 Feb 2009

northpaw said:
Hello everyone!
If I were to use a sentence that had two subjects and thus two "wa" particles, would I write it like (note romaji here):
Watashi-wa wakarimasu anata-wa sugoi desu.
That may be correct but for some reason I don't feel like it is. Keep in mind I am very much a beginner.
Doomo!

If what you are trying to say is something like "I understand/know that you are great.", one thing you can do is to use the "~toiu koto" clause.

Anata ha sugoi to iu koto ga watashi wa wakarimasu

or you could say "watashi ni wa wakarimasu" to accentuate the fact I understand it while others may not realise it.

Mikawa Ossan · 14 Feb 2009

OK, well, my first impression is that this sentence in Japanese doesn't need to explicitly say the "I", as it would be understood by context, but for argument's sake, here's my take on it:

watashi ha, anata ga sugoi koto/no wo/ha shitteiru.

EDIT: My mental image of this sentence is someone being sarcastic. Also that something else is coming up, as in, "I know you're cool and all, but..."

northpaw · 15 Feb 2009

ASHIKAGA said:
If what you are trying to say is something like "I understand/know that you are great.", one thing you can do is to use the "~toiu koto" clause.
Anata ha sugoi to iu koto ga watashi wa wakarimasu
or you could say "watashi ni wa wakarimasu" to accentuate the fact I understand it while others may not realise it.

Is that the only time one would use the "toiu koto" clause?

And thanks for your help.

nhk9 · 14 Mar 2009

the answer is no.

you can use "to iu koto" in many situations. Basically whenever you want to nominalize something. Notice that Japanese people tend to be quite loose regarding phrases like these.

Elizabeth · 14 Mar 2009

nhk9 said:
the answer is no.
you can use "to iu koto" in many situations. Basically whenever you want to nominalize something. Notice that Japanese people tend to be quite loose regarding phrases like these.

It isn't a universal nominalizer, completely interchangable with no ha, or others, of course. On the other hand, "sugoi no ha wakarimasu(ga...)" sounds good, simple, clear and easy, to me.

nhk9 · 15 Mar 2009

Notice that 'many' does not equal 'universal'. In any case, the people of Yamato like to say "tte", which can be a contraction of both to iu koto or to iu no

Elizabeth · 15 Mar 2009

nhk9 said:
Notice that 'many' does not equal 'universal'. In any case, the people of Yamato like to say "tte", which can be a contraction of both to iu koto or to iu no

No, it was the use "to iu koto" "whenever you want to"...which of course anyone can, it just doesn't always make it natural.

Toritoribe · 15 Mar 2009

nhk9 said:
you can use "to iu koto" in many situations. Basically whenever you want to nominalize something. Notice that Japanese people tend to be quite loose regarding phrases like these.

At least, ということ can't be used as the nominalizer for the object of sensory/perceptive verbs or for the clause in sentence emphasis structures.

○鳥が鳴いているのが聞こえる。
×鳥が鳴いているということが聞こえる。

○彼が部屋から出て行くのを見た。
×彼が部屋から出て行くということを見た。

○私のコーラを飲んだのは誰？
×私のコーラを飲んだということは誰？

○勝つのはこのチームでしょう。
×勝つということはこのチームでしょう。

I believe most native Japanese speakers would be sensitive to these usage.

nhk9 · 27 Mar 2009

Toritoribe said:
At least, ということ can't be used as the nominalizer for the object of sensory/perceptive verbs or for the clause in sentence emphasis structures.

○鳥が鳴いているのが聞こえる。
×鳥が鳴いているということが聞こえる。

○彼が部屋から出て行くのを見た。
×彼が部屋から出て行くということを見た。

○私のコーラを飲んだのは誰？
×私のコーラを飲んだということは誰？

○勝つのはこのチームでしょう。
×勝つということはこのチームでしょう。

I guess you may have missed my last post. Notice how I was trying to say "tte" can be used in these situations, either as to iu koto, or to iu no. i think this will just become one of those koto vs no discussions that we have had aplenty.

I can't quite agree that your third and fourth sentences demonstrate usages of 'nominalizers'. At best, they seem like pronouns to me.

Toritoribe · 27 Mar 2009

nhk9 said:
I guess you may have missed my last post. Notice how I was trying to say "tte" can be used in these situations, either as to iu koto, or to iu no. i think this will just become one of those koto vs no discussions that we have had aplenty.
I can't quite agree that your third and fourth sentences demonstrate usages of 'nominalizers'. At best, they seem like pronouns to me.

@nhk9 さんは日本語が堪能だとお見受けしますので日本語で書かせていただきますが、
仰るとおり、この「の」を代名詞と解釈することも可能です。ただし強調構文の場合、名詞に置き換えられない例(下記参照)もあるため、文法上はこの「の」をnominalizerに分類することが多いです。

私は彼から手紙を貰った。 → 私が手紙を貰ったのは彼からだった。
×私が手紙を貰った人は彼からだった。

もちろん、前述の2例に関しては代名詞(「人」、「チーム」の代わり)としても問題ないと思いますが。

前のポストで言いたかったのは、@Elizabeth さんも指摘済みですが、「you can use "to iu koto" in many situations. Basically whenever you want to nominalize something」の部分についてです。少なくとも前述のような例に関しては「ということ」で名詞節化することはできません。つまり「Basically whenever you want」ではないと。
「の」「こと」の対立と「という」が挿入可能かどうかはまた別の問題です。

jovanni · 30 Mar 2009

northpaw said:
If I were to use a sentence that had two subjects and thus two "wa" particles, would I write it like (note romaji here):
Watashi-wa wakarimasu anata-wa sugoi desu.
That may be correct but for some reason I don't feel like it is. Keep in mind I am very much a beginner.

I you want to say
I understand that you are exellent.,
then an expression like
Watasi-wa anata-ga sugoi koto-ga wakarimasu.
may be better.

Elizabeth · 30 Mar 2009

nhk9 said:
I guess you may have missed my last post. Notice how I was trying to say "tte" can be used in these situations, either as to iu koto, or to iu no. i think this will just become one of those koto vs no discussions that we have had aplenty.

上の質問に対するたったひとつの正解というものはない ???

I don't think you can use "to iu no," either. Only no ha/o as toritoribe-san so nicely set out.

Two subjects with "wa" in the same sentence...

northpaw

Registered

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

northpaw

Registered

Ashikaga

もちもちした食感

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

northpaw

Registered

nhk9

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

nhk9

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

nhk9

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

jovanni

後輩

Elizabeth

先輩

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