This use Vてしまう...

David Hallgren · 13 Aug 2004

I've read the grammar-notes about Vてしまう in Genki II but I wasn't sure I had understood everything correctly when I read this paragraph:

今日の午後四時ごろ成田を出て、今日の午後四時ごろこの町に着いた。日本から十数時間かかったのに、日本とアメリカの間には日付変更線というものがあるので、同じ日の同じ時間になってしまったのだ。

日付変更線 (ひづけへんこうせん)= International Date Line

My best guess for a translation would be:
Today at about 4 P.M I left from Narita. Today at about 4 P.M I arrived in this town. It took a little more than 10 hours from Japan, but between Japan and America there is this thing called the International Date Line. Therefore, as it turned out, it it became the same day and the same time.

I added the ", as it turned out," to reflect the "しまった". Would this be correct or am I misunderstanding things here? :?

Genki II basically states that Vてしまう is used to describe that one has done something completely, or that one doesn't have control over the event, but that this very often implies regret about what has happened. Is there any possibility to include regret into the interpretation of this paragraph?

nekosasori · 13 Aug 2004

I agree with what Genki II says (from what you write: I've never seen it personally) - so I don't think the "as it turned out" is incorrect per se, but I wouldn't have put it in, myself. Instead I'd have translated this (whilst taking some liberties) as:

"I departed Narita at about 4PM and reached the town, also at 4PM today. Although the travel time took over 10-something hours from Japan, due to there being an International Date Line (between Japan and the US), I'd arrived at the same time and same day as when I'd left."

PaulTB · 13 Aug 2004

nekosasori said:
"I departed Narita at about 4PM and reached the town, also at 4PM today. Although the travel time took over 10-something hours from Japan, due to there being an International Date Line (between Japan and the US), I'd arrived at the same time and same day as when I'd left."

禿同 However I would make one change to reflect the しまった

"I departed Narita at about 4PM and reached the town, also at 4PM today. Although the travel time took over 10-something hours from Japan, due to there being an International Date Line (between Japan and the US), I'd arrived at the same time and same day as when I'd left!"

Ewok85 · 13 Aug 2004

In this case it adds emphasis but its not the kinda thing you can attach a word to, like "chau".

A better example would be like:
田中さんは三日でその本を読んでしまった。
"Tanaka finished reading the book in 3 days"

I think what the genki book is trying to describe is how "shimau" can be used to indicate regret or that something happened that shouldn't have happened. Like: "I drank all the milk", "I completly forgot Japanese".

Btw, I'm impressed at how well your study is coming along David.

David Hallgren · 13 Aug 2004

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Genki actually lists ちゃう as mearly being a contracted form of てしまう (and じゃう when でしまう)

BTW, Ewok85, my natural response would be to say thanks for noticing my progress, but my new Japanese mind forces me to say things like:
いいえ、まだまだです。

Mike Cash · 13 Aug 2004

PaulTB said:
禿同

When I was a kid, nogi-hen with legs was read "hage".

PaulTB · 13 Aug 2004

mikecash said:
When I was a kid, nogi-hen with legs was read "hage".

Didn't you get the memo?

禿同」は「はげどう」と読みます。「激しく同意」の意。

Mike Cash · 13 Aug 2004

PaulTB said:
Didn't you get the memo?

What a relief! I thought maybe you were going bald.

PaulTB · 13 Aug 2004

mikecash said:
What a relief! I thought maybe you were going bald.

Nope. But I've been going white for years now.

Elizabeth · 13 Aug 2004

Ewok85 said:
In this case it adds emphasis but its not the kinda thing you can attach a word to, like "chau".

A better example would be like:
田中さんは三日でその本を読んでしまった。
"Tanaka finished reading the book in 3 days"

I think what the genki book is trying to describe is how "shimau" can be used to indicate regret or that something happened that shouldn't have happened. Like: "I drank all the milk", "I completly forgot Japanese".

訳は初心者にしては、とても自然によくかけていましたね。

And to round out all the logical possibilities, in still other cases it has the implication of regret at something over which one has no control.

豆腐屋の自動車レースのアニメですが、終わってしまったようです。

日本ではおとといでした。土曜日とかさなってしまったので
休日を１日、損した気分です。

By the way, it struck me that I probably wouldn't have used "de" in Ewok's 田中さんは三日でその本を読んでしまった ? :? Does it somehow add that extra dimension of "spent" or "took" ?

PaulTB · 13 Aug 2004

Elizabeth said:
By the way, it struck me that I probably wouldn't have used "de" in Ewok's 田中さんは三日でその本を読んでしまった ? :? Does it somehow add that extra dimension of "spent" or "took" ?

I think it's just 'where' the action took place.

田中さんは図書館でその本を読んでしまった。
Mr. Tanaka read the whole book at the library!

田中さんは三日でその本を読んでしまった。
Tanaka finished reading the book in 3 days"

'3 days' occupies the same logical position as 'library', IMO.

David Hallgren · 14 Aug 2004

IMHO で seems to be a little different here. It seems to me that it is used to indicate an amount of money/time/etc that has been used. That is, in this situation I think it does the same work in these two:
この本を五百円で買いました。
この本を三日で読みました。
Which means that it seems likely that it is a derived use from the で which describes a tool that was used, "I did it by using ...", rather than the で which describes the location.

But as I said, I'm just guessing here... :?

PaulTB · 14 Aug 2004

David Hallgren said:
But as I said, I'm just guessing here... :?

No, that's a very good point. Now let me just pretend I didn't post in the first place.

Elizabeth · 14 Aug 2004

David Hallgren said:
IMHO で seems to be a little different here. It seems to me that it is used to indicate an amount of money/time/etc that has been used. That is, in this situation I think it does the same work in these two:
この本を五百円で買いました。
この本を三日で読みました。
Which means that it seems likely that it is a derived use from the で which describes a tool that was used, "I did it by using ...", rather than the で which describes the location.

But as I said, I'm just guessing here... :?

That was my extrapolation as well, although "ni" is also used of course in additional cases for within (or in ?) a set period of time.

This use Vてしまう...

David Hallgren

New comer

nekosasori

Occasional visitor

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

Ewok85

先輩

David Hallgren

New comer

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

Elizabeth

先輩

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

David Hallgren

New comer

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

Elizabeth

先輩

Similar threads