The "redundant" "n" before "da" and "desu"

fixelbrumpf · 1 May 2004

I've been wondering about the origin of the origin of the "extra" n that seems to pop up frequently before "da" and "desu" for quite some time.

Here's my thesis so far: the "extra n" seems to be used when verb forms that end in a vowel (isn't this true of most about any verb for anyway?) are followed by "da" or "desu". My guess is that it is only used to make the sentence "flow" better and that it makes no difference in meaning. Am I right? Thanks in advance. ☝

PaulTB · 1 May 2004

fixelbrumpf said:
I've been wondering about the origin of the origin of the "extra" n that seems to pop up frequently before "da" and "desu" for quite some time.

It's a の in disguise.

fixelbrumpf · 1 May 2004

That's what my Japanese language pal told me and she told me that there was a difference in meaning. She said in the sentence 誰だって失敗はするんだ
the "no in disguise" turned this sentence into an universal statement -- everyone always makes mistakes.

However, when I watch anime, I hear the "n" all the time, even in simple statements -- "mitsuketan da!" "tasuketan da!" so I kind of doubt the "n" has a lot of meaning attached to it when used casually.

Sigh, I watch too much anime.

akihabara · 2 May 2004

I think "n" is a weak sound of "no".

むかしむかし、おじいさんがいたのです。－－－おしまい。
Mukashi mukashi, ojiisan ga ita no desu. ---oshimai.
ita no desu => ita n desu いたんです。

これで、いいのだ。
Korede, ii no da.
ii no da => ii n da これで、いいんだ。

According to my Japanese dictionary, のだ(noda) conveys a feeling like "dare to" (あえて～する). And んだ(nda) does too. In adition to that, んだ implies a feeling that most people don't think so, but the fact is so.

PaulTB · 2 May 2004

fixelbrumpf said:
However, when I watch anime, I hear the "n" all the time, even in simple statements -- "mitsuketan da!" "tasuketan da!" so I kind of doubt the "n" has a lot of meaning attached to it when used casually.

Exactly what meaning is attached in those cases I wouldn't know without context. But the general rule is of explaining something (or in questions) asking for the explanation of something.

Elizabeth · 2 May 2004

Here's my thesis so far: the "extra n" seems to be used when verb forms that end in a vowel (isn't this true of most about any verb for anyway?) are followed by "da" or "desu".

Well....there is the sentence ending "no" used by women and children for emotional emphasis or as an explanation/excuse. Shokuji wo jibunde tsukattan(o). Atama ga itain(o). Youji ga attan(o).

Choudo hoshiikattanda/desu. Hoshikattano for women? It was just what I wanted.

On the other hand, 'no desu/deshou' would simply be more polite without these informal connotations ?

And naru as well as desu endings (?) Byoukin natta. Because I became sick?
Or is this n a contraction of ni?

And there is the no used with a rising intonation in questions. Doushitan desuka? Ikanain deshouka?

Very common also in adjectives (nan for na).... although I can't think of a good example at the moment.

fixelbrumpf · 2 May 2004

Just watched "my" anime again, it's the anime adaption of the manga "Monster" that's airing in Japan at the moment, fansubbed, and like I said, it happens all the time. The language doesn't seem to be too slangy, either.

PaulTB, they indeed do seem to use the "n" a lot when they're explaining things, but the main protagonist, Doctor Tenma, was just accused by the police of having something to do with a case of serial murder, and said "nani ga iitain desu ka"?

Again the "n" used in a question. "Doko ni irun da yo?", said by the prime suspect who's currently in hospital and is being guarded by a police officer, wondering about the police officer's whereabouts.

I'll post more examples later. Perhaps it's a dialect thing?

PaulTB · 2 May 2004

fixelbrumpf said:
PaulTB, they indeed do seem to use the "n" a lot when they're explaining things, but the main protagonist, Doctor Tenma, was just accused by the police of having something to do with a case of serial murder, and said "nani ga iitain desu ka"?

It's the same thing, although difficult to explain. I'll give a similar pair of examples that are a bit easier to follow.

"ikitai desu ka." "Do you want to go?" Straightfoward question.
"ikidain desu ka." "Is it that you want to go?" Asking for an explanation, the person being spoken to may have been dropping hints about how nice the speakers planned holiday is.

If that's the bit in Monster that I think it is then the police asked something like "dokoka te ni ireta shitteimasu ka." "Do you know where they got hold of [those poisoned sweets]?"

If his reply was "nani ga iitai desu ka" then it could be a literal "I don't follow you - what are you asking about?". With "nani ga iitain desu ka" it's "What is it that you are implying?" (again seeking explanation).

akihabara · 2 May 2004

This is the excerpts from a Japanese dictionary I happen to have in my house.

fixelbrumpf said:
誰だって失敗はするんだ。

だ expresses conclusions. The speaker states positively that everyone can make mistakes.
When connected to 用言(a declinable word), の is inserted between 用言 and だ. （するのだ） Then のだ is changed to んだ for the sake of euphony.

Elizabeth said:
Shokuji wo jibunde tsukattan(o). Atama ga itain(o). Youji ga attan(o)

食事を自分でつくったの。頭がいたいの。用事があったの。
If these are not questions, の means
Ⅳ.間投助詞 ⅰ.（女性・小児語）断定の気持ちをやわらげて言う。
(woman,child) to soften a feeling of conclusion.

Elizabeth said:
Choudo hoshiikattanda/desu.

ちょうど欲しかったんだ。ちょうど欲しかったんです。
Ah, I don't know. This may be a mix of 誰だって失敗はするんだ and 食事を自分でつくったの ???

Elizabeth said:
Byoukin natta.

病気になった(Byouki ni natta)。OK ／病気んなった(Byoukin natta)。NG
You may hear "byoukin" in fast spoke Japanese. But there is no usage 病気ん. Yes, this n is a contraction of ni only on sound.

Elizabeth said:
Doushitan desuka? Ikanain deshouka?

どうしたんですか？行かないんでしょうか？（いけないんでしょうか？desuka?）
I think this is a polite form of どうしたの？.
ⅵ.他に対して疑問を表す。「何をするの」

PaulTB said:
But the general rule is of explaining something (or in questions) asking for the explanation of something.

A:見つけたんだよ。
B:見つけたんだ～！？。
Asking back the same phrase to confirm what you hear and/or express surprise and/or elicit more information.

PaulTB said:
With "nani ga iitain desu ka" it's "What is it that you are implying?" (again seeking explanation).

PaulTB san, nice explanation.

Elizabeth · 2 May 2004

If his reply was "nani ga iitai desu ka" then it could be a literal "I don't follow you - what are you asking about?". With "nani ga iitain desu ka" it's "What is it that you are implying?" (again seeking explanation).

This is a nice way of putting it. And I've always been under the impression as informal extensions
Naniga iitaino? -- What's the point ? What's the meaning here ?
Nani itteruno/hanashiteruno ? What are you talking about ?
Nante ittano ? What did you say ?

Elizabeth · 3 May 2004

病気になった(Byouki ni natta)。OK ／病気んなった(Byoukin natta)。NG
You may hear "byoukin" in fast spoke Japanese. But there is no usage 病気ん. Yes, this n is a contraction of ni only on sound.

I saw it on the Internet a while back, but It didn't sound good to me as standard Japanese either. How about either 母が病気なんだった・です or 母が病気だったんです for 'Because my mother was (so) sick' ?

Elizabeth · 3 May 2004

どうしたんですか？行かないんでしょうか？（いけないんでしょうか？desuka?）
I think this is a polite form of どうしたの？.
ⅵ.他に対して疑問を表す。「何をするの」

そして「の？」や「んだ」という文を除いては、「のでしょう」が丁寧なので、「でしょう」の代わりによく使われるのでしょうかね。でも、普段は「のでしょう」を使われる文ですが、何か相手に
「説明」を求めてるわけでもないし、驚きを表してと思っているわけでもないというニュアンスがあり、言えない感じがないじゃないか？

いや、質問が沢山になってすみませんね。秋葉原さんをこのフォーラムから追い払うだろうと思います。:shy: ご自由に必要なだけ時間をかけてくださいね！

fixelbrumpf · 4 May 2004

Okay, thanks, guys, you're making a lot of sense, as always.

I know one thing for sure, though: when I get the opportunity to speak more Japanese, I'm going to overuse the heck out of this, as, for some reason, the n before da or desu simply sounds "better" to me now than the "plain" da or desu, and for some reason, I think that it makes pronounciation easier as well.

By the way, we briefly discussed "no desu" in class yesterday, and my Japanese professor said that it simply acts as some kind of amplifier to provide your sentence with more emphasis and "omph".

Elizabeth · 4 May 2004

By the way, we briefly discussed "no desu" in class yesterday, and my Japanese professor said that it simply acts as some kind of amplifier to provide your sentence with more emphasis and "omph".

"No desu" provides more emphasis and "no deshou" is only more polite than deshou ? :? As for "Ndesu" sounding better, it actually seems slightly childish or whiney to me which is why I try to stick to more for questions than explanatory/emotive emphasis, but this is probably no less unnatural....

lexico · 21 Jul 2005

Regarding the "redundant" /N/ before a /d/:

If the origin of the /N/ cannot be ascribed to an elipsis, it might help to look into the possiblity of nasal sounds /m/, /n/, and /ng/ being born out of non-nasal voiced plosivess /b/, /d/, and /g/ by the closure of the nasal tract. In the case of /g/ > /ng-g/ it is well observed and studied.

Epigene "Don't give me a $h!+" ?_? | Japan Forum
CorDarei "Don't give me a $h!+" ?_? | Japan Forum
Lexico "Don't give me a $h!+" ?_? | Japan Forum

In the case of /b/ > /m-b/, I have presented the example of tobacco.

One aspect of Japanese nasals: although the nasal N at the end of a word does not distinguish m, n, or ng sounds, the same phoneme N before the voiced b, d, or g will become assimilated and phonologically realized as m, n, or ng. Again Masayoshi Shibatani lists;

/sjoNbori/ 'dejectedly' > [shombori]
/moNdori/ 'somersault' > [mondori]
/koNgari/ 'crisp'......... > [konggari]

One interesting example of 'cigarette' borrowed from Potuguese to Japanese to Korean is noteworthy.
Portuguese tabacco /tabako/ > Japanese 'たばこ /tabako/ > LM. Korean 담바고 /tambago/ > Mod. Korean 담배 /tambe/
The going explanation says that the nasal /m/ developed after ther word was borrowed into Korean because the voiced /b/ which does not exist in Korean was interpreted as an /mb/ which made more sense in the host language.

But if the preceding study by Kindaichi Haruhiko on /g/~/ng/ alternation can be extended to /b/~/mb/ and /d/~/nd/ alternations (can it?) then 16th century Japanese may have nasalized the intervocalic /b/ as /mb/. I wonder if this is the case. One Korean source Jang Yu 장유 張維's Kegok Manpil 「계곡만필 谿谷漫筆」, 1635, says that the Japanese call this /tambakkoi/.

If the pattern is also preserved in the case of /d/ > /n-d/, as in your example /n/ before /da/ and /desu/, then we have established a general nasalizing tendency across all three classes of voiced plosives, b, d, and g. Whether this nasalising phonology is observed across all occurrences of the phonemes /b/, /d/, and /g/, or whether it only applies in the case of certain morphemes but not others, then the model of lexical diffusion can be useful. A geographical survey of the nasalisation in question would be necessary; I'd be highly interested whether such a study has been conducted. Perhaps ToMach might know ?

nekocat · 5 Jul 2007

fixelbrumpf said:
The language doesn't seem to be too slangy, either.

Yes, it's not slangy. It's just colloquial.

PaulTB, they indeed do seem to use the "n" a lot when they're explaining things,

Yes, your right. It's used to explain things. Your prof's explanation of "amplifier" has a bit of a problem.

but the main protagonist, Doctor Tenma, was just accused by the police of having something to do with a case of serial murder, and said "nani ga iitain desu ka"?
Again the "n" used in a question.

It's not that "n" is used for question, but that it's a copula connecting "desu" with the previous part of the sentence.

"Doko ni irun da yo?", said by the prime suspect who's currently in hospital and is being guarded by a police officer, wondering about the police officer's whereabouts.
I'll post more examples later. Perhaps it's a dialect thing?

yukio_michael · 5 Jul 2007

fixelbrumpf said:
I know one thing for sure, though: when I get the opportunity to speak more Japanese, I'm going to overuse the heck out of this, as, for some reason, the n before da or desu simply sounds "better" to me now than the "plain" da or desu, and for some reason, I think that it makes pronounciation easier as well.

It's not a question of sounding better or adding more "oompf", whatever that is.

The ん is like no da, an explanatory addition... it's not made to make the sentence more dramatic.

The no is explanitory.

For example...

doushite n desku ka?

...can be translated as "i know something is wrong, what is wrong?"

when saying something it's an explanation...

Why can't we have cofee tommorow?

Ashita wa doushite shigoto ni iku n desu....

"it's because tommorow i have to go to work (explanatory)..."

It's based on assumptions, or explanations....

ps. (edit): If you do use the heck out of this, you'll be using it wrong, because it does have a specific purpose in the Japanese language... though one, I'll admit is quite difficult for many people to wrap their heads around.

Knocks · 2 Apr 2008

Consider the following dialog.

Q: 今どこにいる？
A: 家にいるんだけど...

The first person used a simple いる without ん. The second person, however, changed the いる to いるんだ, because his answer is of explanatory nature (hence the use of けど).

The "redundant" "n" before "da" and "desu"

fixelbrumpf

先輩

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

fixelbrumpf

先輩

akihabara

先輩

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

Elizabeth

先輩

fixelbrumpf

先輩

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

akihabara

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

fixelbrumpf

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

lexico

後輩

nekocat

先輩

yukio_michael

後輩

Knocks

後輩

Similar threads