The のだのぶん Construction

Rei Yahya · 17 Sep 2011

こんいちはみんあさん、質問があります。

Language books and extra materials (like Japanese video games) will teach/express the のだのぶん construction, which is んだ／んです at the end of sentences. It expresses that the subject has already been established in a way.

For example, it is well-known that Takashi knows his way around town very well. When asked why, he replies, 「とてもいい地図があるんです。」Without the 'ndesu' he simply states a fact but with the 'ndesu' it is well-established what they're talking about, a familiar subject. (Is this correct?)

However, the only two times I've used this construction with Japanese, they seem to be confused, like I've made an error. Why is it that I see this construction around, but when used with Japanese people, they don't seem to know what I'm talking about? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Mike Cash · 18 Sep 2011

Could it possibly be your pronunciation? Sometimes problems with stress/intonation have that same result.

If you recall the situations, it would be helpful if you would relate the conversations where you had trouble being understood. We might be able to figure out what went wrong.

Toritoribe · 18 Sep 2011

Rei Yahya said:
こんいちはみんあさん

こんにちはみなさん;-)

Rei Yahya said:
with the 'ndesu' it is well-established what they're talking about, a familiar subject.

The の/ん is sometimes called "explanatry の".
Noun-related particles - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

BTW, I've never heard the word のだのぶん...

Rei Yahya · 18 Sep 2011

Toritoribe said:
こんにちはみなさん

Fitting I would make such a mistype first post. A good humbling is required for this.

It, I read, is called the 'no da no bun' construction by some Japanese grammarians.

And as for the points when Japanese people were confused, it wasn't actually in speech but in typing, which confuses me.

Toritoribe · 18 Sep 2011

Maybe it's 「のだ」文("no da" bun)?

What is the sentence you wrote to them, for instance?

Rei Yahya · 18 Sep 2011

I believe I understand the problem now. But either way, here is the situation: I asked a grammar question, and a Japanese person replied and answered. I thanked them and said, "今分かっているんです" or what I tried to express as "Now I understand." They told me that 分かりました was the 'correct' thing to say.

Your link was very helpful. I never thought of it in the way of being an 'explanatory' implication. To them I would be seeing, "Now, it is that I understand".

Toritoribe · 18 Sep 2011

Yeah, 分かっているんです sounds like a complaint.

There is another problem there; the aspect of 分かっている. I don't mean to alarm you, but the ～ている form is one of the most tough-to-grasp things for non-native learners.

Rei Yahya · 18 Sep 2011

Toritoribe said:
I don't mean to alarm you, but the ～ている form is one of the most tough-to-grasp things for non-native learners.

What are the tough connotations of ～ている？As far as I understand, the 'iru' at the end of a ~te implies a present tense. Whereas りんごを食べる would be I eat apples, りんごを食べている would be I am eating apples. I'm guessing there are more layers to it than just that, of course!

Mike Cash · 18 Sep 2011

Rei Yahya said:
What are the tough connotations of ～ている？As far as I understand, the 'iru' at the end of a ~te implies a present tense. Whereas りんごを食べる would be I eat apples, りんごを食べている would be I am eating apples. I'm guessing there are more layers to it than just that, of course!

What gave me trouble at first was the situations where in English we use an adjective while Japanese uses a verb. For example: 太っている or 痩せている

Toritoribe · 19 Sep 2011

Rei Yahya said:
What are the tough connotations of ～ている？As far as I understand, the 'iru' at the end of a ~te implies a present tense. Whereas りんごを食べる would be I eat apples, りんごを食べている would be I am eating apples. I'm guessing there are more layers to it than just that, of course!

Yeah, indeed ～ている expresses "ongoing movements", i.e., the present progressive tense in a group of verbs, but also expresses the current state that result from prior movements in another group of verbs. For instance, 死んでいる doesn't mean "Someone is dying" but means "Someone is dead(Someone died in the past and his/her current state is dead)". 食べる belongs to the former group, and わかる belongs to the latter. Thus, わかっています means "I (already) know it", and わかっているんです could mean "I already know it (so you don't need to say it)".

Rei Yahya · 19 Sep 2011

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, indeed ～ている expresses "ongoing movements", i.e., the present progressive tense in a group of verbs, but also expresses the current state that result from prior movements in another group of verbs. For instance, 死んでいる doesn't mean "Someone is dying" but means "Someone is dead(Someone died in the past and his/her current state is dead)". 食べる belongs to the former group, and わかる belongs to the latter. Thus, わかっています means "I (already) know it", and わかっているんです could mean "I already know it (so you don't need to say it)".

Ahh, that makes much more sense. So basically, not every conjugation with ~te + iru means present progressive. Is there a list or site anywhere that talks about this distinction among different verbs?

Toritoribe · 19 Sep 2011

There will be some lists, but I don't think it's so helpful. The meanings can be changed depending on the context. For instance, 来ている expresses the current state in お客さんがうちに来ている(A guest came to my house and is in my house now), whereas it also means the present progressive in 台風がこっちに来ている(A typhoon is approaching). Tough, indeed.

The のだのぶん Construction

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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