Surely the meaning of 'gaijin' is contextual?!

Glenski said:

William Spencer wrote:
Would you mind if I asked what sort of survey this is going to be? From your route, we are unlikely to cross paths, but I would be interested in knowing what and how you are planning to do.

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as many of you know, i am university academic here in sydney australia who is teaching japanese language, japanese popular culture and intercultural communication. i research on all three areas. this topic is trying to open up japanese studies to include 'gaijin studies' since it seems lacking in the academic lit. as i have mentioned.

the questionnaire asks about what happens when you see another (unknown) gaijin in a public place (not a friend). it takes about 20mins to fill in and since i am in japan twice this year i'd also like to interview you. the research has ethics committee clearance which is fully explained in the information attached to the questionnaire. if interested contact me!

gaijinalways said:

William Spencer, give me a PM when or just before you come to Tokyo, I'll treat you to a beer if we can hook up.

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thank you. i will do that! most likely it will be the second time i'm in tokyo mid august...perhaps a beer garden? i haven't been to one recently! gosh i love edamame and beer though i have to admit that beer and me are actually a no no...chuuhai anyone?

☝

it have read fairly quickly through this discussion. hmmm there's some fairly deep kind of thinking going on in your heads! in my head at least language and culture are the two sides of the same coin, though this i reckon is being challenged with the onset of world englishes (or english as the international language - notice the 'the') in which speakers bring their first culture to the situation and interact in english using the rules underpinning that first language. tricky!!!! hence the 'native speaker' is in some quarters dead meat. but with japanese it might be still safe to say that despite it being learned in many other places outside japan, the debate still rages as to whether japanese japanese culture should be taught as well as the language...
this issue goes to the heart of the discussion i reckon. learning another language changes people whether we like it or not. learning anything has this power don't you agree?
many of you have learned how to live in japan dealing with all the stresses (good and not so good). indeed a feat to be marvelled at (i recall the time i lived there - i guess i had to deal with something 'new' most days and that was both shocking and stimulating). who amongst you have taken japanese language lessons? who have taken japanese culture lessons? what is being assumed when we learn japanese language even at whatever level (i see myself as an advanced learner).
see the ad for JOI japanese lanaguage institute? hmmm i wonder what that place teaches?
☝ (i use this coz it's so bloody cute!)

Good luck with your survey. I won't be anywhere near your travels. Threads about "what do you do when you see/meet a fellow foreigner?" crop up about twice a year on various forums, and they always discuss the same points, so I expect you'll get similar answers, depending on your questions.

who amongst you have taken japanese language lessons?

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Took a year of night classes eons ago before I came here to teach (but after my first experience living and working in Tokyo). Have studied on my own since then (not nearly enough).

who have taken japanese culture lessons?

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Not me. What sort of thing are you referring to? Ikebana? Martial arts? Pottery making? Tea ceremony?

what is being assumed when we learn japanese language even at whatever level ?

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Another loaded question and totally dependent on the individual and their level. In the most basic terms, I'm sure you realize the answer:
It is assumed that one learns some level of the language, and perhaps a smidgeon of culture. Beyond that... anything goes.

I can explain what you probably already know about eikaiwas, that is, students there can be kiddies, teens, housewives, retirees, or business people. All have different reasons for being there and different expectations:

Mom made me go.
I want to speak better in HS or college.
I have time to kill and a little money to burn.
I want to pick up some useful English for my overseas trips.
I want to socialize with other people.
I want to see a foreigner.
I want to learn a little English maybe to help my community as a translator during international events.
I want to improve my ability to get a promotion or overseas transfer.

As for people learning Japanese, perhaps there are similar reasons:

My spouse is Japanese, so I need/want to communicate better.
I'm in Japan and want to communicate better overall or in my job.
I HAVE TO communicate better at work if I'm going to get a better job.
My Mom made me go (perhaps more attributable to "halfs" or other kids born to foreigners).

I took a year of privates, also studied on my own, and my Japanese wife gives me ad hoc lessons whenever she feels like it.
Get cultural lessons all the time, some of them annoying, but always interesting. Students and wife supply them daily.

Assumptions, many when you are studying any language. Let me think about that one to give a fuller answer.

Yes, the idea of native speakers of English is losing its hold, one place that I work at we have an Israeli, an Indian, and a German teaching English (what am I doing there) . They are all advanced speakers, and they don't teach beyond the intermediate level.

William Spencer said:

who amongst you have taken japanese language lessons? who have taken japanese culture lessons? what is being assumed when we learn japanese language even at whatever level (i see myself as an advanced learner).
see the ad for JOI japanese lanaguage institute? hmmm i wonder what that place teaches?
☝ (i use this coz it's so bloody cute!)

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I took one year of Japanese lessons at the local ward center, the program was run by a group of volunteers. I also studied on my own between classes as they were only once a week for two hours.

As far as learning Japanese from Japanese people in Japan goes, it was a pleasant experience. There were students of many different backgrounds there, I think in my group I was one of only two native English speakers. I was in an intermediate group however, the beginner levels had many Eikaiwa teachers and fewer people from non-Western countries. The highest level classes were populated by a few Eikaiwa 'lifers' as we'd call them, and mostly Chinese students. The Japanese teachers rotated weekly and were all quite kind and patient. Their teaching ability and methodology varied but for a volunteer program it was well organized and included a textbook (photocopy package) and weekly handouts and materials.

Culture was openly included in the lessons, when it was near shougatsu/bonenkai time we spent some time on the various traditions, foods, clothing, festivals, etc. When it was obon time we got to wear yukatas, had a potluck meal and did some bonodori. Students at all levels were encouraged to come out and participate, the cultural activities were not limited to the newly landed individuals. During lessons the variety of backgrounds in our group lent itself to a lot of cultural comparisons, the teachers seemed genuinely interested in how we did things back home as much as we were interested in Japan.

Overall it was a great experience. As far as these classes were concerned, culture and language were definitely not kept separate, although it was more of a language class than a multi-faceted 'welcome to Japan' class, 85% of the time was still spent on language. As far as what's being assumed by teachers goes, because the classes were very inexpensive and the atmosphere was laid back, I don't think the question of why anyone was learning ever came up officially. It was most likely assumed that everyone simply wished to achieve a suitable level of proficiency so they could deal with day to day life and make something of their time in Japan. It's not as if you stop once you get to a certain level, so even the higher level students were most likely viewed as people on the same path who'd just been around longer. If anyone was learning for the purpose of business or professional advancement I'd guess they would have probably gone to a more expensive or employer-sponsored school.

I think one reason people learn another language when they don't have a spouse of that background, don't work there or perhaps don't even live in that country is simply for the purpose of self-betterment and learning. An intellectual hobby which stems from an interest in that culture. In that way they're better able to engage it and if studying from their home country it prepares them for the eventuality of travelling there.

It's always helpful to learn, and languages are just another tool among many to help us do things in life.

Well said, nice post, bakaKanadajin (what a name, you force me to call you by. )
True, gaijinalways, I wish you and Obeika happy gaijin-lives here in Japan.

It's always helpful to learn, and languages are just another toll among many to help us do things in life.

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How true. I have noticed something that has changed dramatically in the years that I have been living here. More and more foreigners that come here to live, or work, or visit have at the minimum a rudimentary understanding of Japanese and or a basic understanding of the Japanese culture.

In my opinion that stems the the era of the "bubble economy" that was so famous throughout the world. People from all over the world starting taking a more keen interest in Japan inclusive of everything, from Anime through to Zaibatsu, the perverbial A to Z.

Before that time many of the foreigners, not all of course, knew little or had little motivation or interest in speaking the language and learning about the culture. They lived in ignorant or should I say "arrogant" bliss.

I have also noticed more aggressiveness among the foreign people that I come across than compared with the past. There was more of a passive acceptance of the culture and people. Some it seems, to me at least, want the Japanese people to view them as their equals and will not stand for being placed into a "specialized" little corner, per say.

They want their independence and individuality to be respected. I dont see any problems with that either, however I would personally feel more comfortable if they would work more at attempting to adapt themselves to the society here instead of working so hard to pushing so hard to get the society and people here to adapt to them. (This statement is not directed towards ANYONE here posting on this board, it is based purely on experiences that I have had here and from observations I have made regarding said individuals's)

Maybe people who were living here back in the 70's or earlier could shed more light on this, I am just passing along one of my observations from my time living here.

I wish you and Obeika happy gaijin-lives in here in Japan.

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Samraiwise, thank you that is most gracious of you.

I would like to say one thing, and I truly hope you dont misunderstand me here, because there is absolutely no intent to want to cause you any "guilt" or "hard-feelings" here. Please take what I am going to write next as a comment in general.

While I truly appreciate the kind words of encouragement I would feel much better if you had just written "I wish you and Obeika happy lives here in Japan", without including the word "gaijin"..

I know that your intent was pure and had no intention of wanting to cause any problems as you come across to me as a rather decent gentleman. Yet we still are back to being put in a little glass case, just because of the use of the word "gaijin".

Maybe I am being "overly" sensitive here on this point and I usually, 99% of the time, would overlook this, but it relates in a way to an earlier post I made in reply to you. Taken at face value, which btw I did it is a most welcome greeting from you and I am sure it wasn't intentional either.

I also notice that there are two distinctly different conversations being held within this thread, very interesting reading folks, thank you.

Obeika said:

I also notice that there are two distinctly different conversations being held within this thread...

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yes Obeika there are a few conversations in this thread. i'm so pleased! this may be because from reading them and other archived material on similar material, there's lots of common links to the experience of being a gaijin in japan. again i toy with the issue by speculating that this may not be unique to foreigners in japan but also true of those in korea and mainland china and perhaps taiwan.

in regards to the issue of feeling obliged to acknowledge another (unknown) gaijin in the street [and i gleaned that from reading a few other threads], here are my observations to date:
1) while 'gaijin' are certainly not homogeneous, there appears to be a myth that gaijin share some kind of kindred spirit together (skin colour seems to be foregrounded)
2) the obligation to acknowledge causes stress within an individual since it can be an inavasion of personal space (privacy)
3)there's definitely a division between newbies (perhaps apprentice or novice might be better?) in japan and oldtimers (oldhand, master, experienced???): question:- how long does it take a newbie to become an oldtimer?
4)for those who want to be immersed into japanese language and culture and deny other gaijin, there's a desire to be put into that special position of precious foreigner: this is another issue which i'd like to discuss: ie how some foreigners (typically white) are placed on a pedestal...this was the hardest thing i had to shake off when i returned to sydney: i wasn't special anymore
5)some gaijin often do something totally stupid and humiliating coz they do not 'respect' japanese culture or, to my way of thinking, the norms and rules of japanese culture which have been constructed by another gaijin

the question is why?

here's my hunch: as the apprentice, the just-off-the-plane gaijin has to learn the many rules that have been set down by other gaijin (check out japan, foreigners and the unspoken contract thread using dan e venz's work) but more than that s/he also has to learn about being a minority which s/he may not have experienced before. (i take this from being a gay man who 'checks out' other gay men in the street using my gaydar and smiling or at least acknowledging in some way we share something in common...perhaps there's a gaidar???) the gaijin greeting thing (or gaijin complex) is done to acknowledge this minority membership which by the time the gaijin has become an oldtimer has become practically unnecessary coz s/he has grown accustomed to the environment (the fully immersed foreigner in venz's words). it's a coping mechanism in the process of cross-culturally adapting to japan.

any comments?

☝

ie how some foreigners (typically white) are placed on a pedestal...this was the hardest thing i had to shake off when i returned to sydney: i wasn't special anymore

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I tried to stay on one, someone kept pushing me off it!

question:- how long does it take a newbie to become an oldtimer?

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Depends on the clique. 'Over at Young Dudes' guide to Japan', if you don't agree with some of the skirt chasing theories, than you're definately not welcome. On top of that, don't question the resident nationalist about his right-wing views (liberal in his mind, ha, ha)!

3)there's definitely a division between newbies (perhaps apprentice or novice might be better?) in japan and oldtimers (oldhand, master, experienced???): question:- how long does it take a newbie to become an oldtimer?

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Good question, as I have met some "newbies" that act and handle themselves as "oldtimers" and vice versa.

Depends on the person I guess.

I dont personally feel any affinity for fellow gaijin here in Japan, if they want to talk to me that's up to them, however I wont go out of my way to ignore them either.

The time you intend to spend in the country and your attitude before arriving set the tone, I think. If you're an independently minded individual who's resolved to achieve some level of self-sufficiency over there, regardless of the duration of your stay, you're much less apt to have the 'hey we're two gaijins in a pot' attitude.

Likewise if you're there with the notion that this place is way beyond you and you're basically so overwhelmed that you are a passive audience to your own experience, you will possibly seek out the companionship and validation of others who you feel are as lost as you are. Like two husbands that have never met who got dragged along to a baby shower.

I think the two groups have completely different goals and levels of attunement. The latter group may, depending on the length of their stay, eventually join the former group, but the former group is blazing their own trail from day one and if they're in the country on a long term basis these are the ones who will excel at cultural and linguistic studies, adapt quicker and as previously discussed in this thread form smaller internal hierarchies.

As for why some gaijin are friendlier towards other gaijin and some aren't.. maybe the self-starters are a little prouder of their relative progress and see themselves as a guide for the lost in some cases, although others are less generous and don't believe in catching fish for others, they'd rather see others learn to fish for themselves.

As for why some gaijin are friendlier towards other gaijin and some aren't.. maybe the self-starters are a little prouder of their relative progress and see themselves as a guide for the lost in some cases, although others are less generous and don't believe in catching fish for others, they'd rather see others learn to fishfor themselves

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You know what really bothers me is the gaijin that go out of their way to help those fellow gaijin that dont need help. I've known a couple in my time here, their time and attention was unecessary and 100% unneeded.

Also the ones that come across as the martyr type, the self effacing I been there done that, feel sorry for me because I suffered through every possible experience there is known to mankind/womenkind while living here in Japan, plus I know I've forgotten more about the history, nuances, and locality than you've even begun to learn. I've got a huge chip on my shoulder feel sorry for me and I'll help you out or go f*** yourself, type super hyper gaijin as well. Those are the type that really get my goat.

Maybe that explains a part of my lack of motivation about the perils of "fellow gaijin" here in Japan (Present company on this board excluded to a degree)and really dont give a hoot if the Japanese people want to call me one either. I am who I am.

Hell my wife and kids love me so what else or who else need I worry about? And I am a pretty damn good father and husband as well, if I say so myself.

Its like the word 'otaku'. If used in a certain way, it is derogatory.

3)there's definitely a division between newbies (perhaps apprentice or novice might be better?) in japan and oldtimers (oldhand, master, experienced???): question:- how long does it take a newbie to become an oldtimer?

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Depends on the individual, how much effort they put into getting adjusted here, and perhaps their maturity/outlook on life.

4)for those who want to be immersed into japanese language and culture and deny other gaijin, there's a desire to be put into that special position of precious foreigner: this is another issue which i'd like to discuss: ie how some foreigners (typically white) are placed on a pedestal...this was the hardest thing i had to shake off when i returned to sydney: i wasn't special anymore

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William, you have brought up 2 separate points here. Being a "precious foreigner" immersed in the culture here and denying other gaijin vs. reverse culture shock.

5)some gaijin often do something totally stupid and humiliating coz they do not 'respect' japanese culture or, to my way of thinking, the norms and rules of japanese culture which have been constructed by another gaijin

the question is why?

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They may do stupid or humiliating things consciously or unconsciously. Not knowing vs. blatantly ignoring.

What do you mean by norms and rules of Japanese culture constructed by another gaijin? Aren't those rules and norms constructed by the Japanese?

the gaijin greeting thing (or gaijin complex) is done to acknowledge this minority membership which by the time the gaijin has become an oldtimer has become practically unnecessary coz s/he has grown accustomed to the environment

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I disagree, William, at least in part. Yes, that is perhaps one reason, but from day one I have never felt the urge to greet or acknowledge other foreigners. Not once. I'm not an introvert, either, nor have I been exposed to a home society where you don't look others in the eye on the street. It's just my way, and I've expressed this many times on threads like the one you mentioned about greeting foreigners.

Obeika wrote:

You know what really bothers me is the gaijin that go out of their way to help those fellow gaijin that dont need help. I've known a couple in my time here, their time and attention was unecessary and 100% unneeded.

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I have to say that in almost 10 years here, I've never run across anyone like that.

Hell my wife and kids love me so what else or who else need I worry about?

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I find this a surprising statement to make in a land where many things depend on group efforts and harmony. Yes, ultimately all that matters is what your and your family feel, but you can't shut yourself off from the rest of society. You have to deal with people outside of your home, and in Japan that often takes more cooperative efforts, persistence, and patience than back home. What do you care how others feel? Well, consider that promotion that you lost because you were a complainer (something we might actually use to our advantage back home if not overused). Just one example.

I have to say that in almost 10 years here, I've never run across anyone like that.

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Two people in particular stand out in my mind, I will share one experience here. My wife, who happens to be Japanese, and I were shopping at a department store frequently used by foreigners here in Okinawa. We were at a check out counter and the woman assumed that we both were foreigners and attempted to talk to us in rather broken English. Before my wife or I could interrupt her and explain that we both could answer her in Japanese this "person" not an employee btw, came rushing up to our register and said to us "I'll help you out here" and proceeded to our somewhat shock and amusement to talk to the cashier in broken Japanese, of course this person was trying to be helpful however they stuck their nose into a situation that was not necessary.

This person turned red with embarrassment after she heard both my wife and I thank her first in English for her "attempt" to assist us and then to her chagrin my wife tell the cashier in Japanese of course that she could understand her perfectly. I think they both learned a lesson that day about making decisions based upon looks and whether someones assistance is needed or otherwise. That is one example and the other is somewhat similar.

I find this a surprising statement to make in a land where many things depend on group efforts and harmony. Yes, ultimately all that matters is what your and your family feel, but you can't shut yourself off from the rest of society. You have to deal with people outside of your home, and in Japan that often takes more cooperative efforts, persistence, and patience than back home. What do you care how others feel? Well, consider that promotion that you lost because you were a complainer (something we might actually use to our advantage back home if not overused). Just one example.

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Sure I know this as well, while the statement is true I said that somewhat in gest. Sorry if you misunderstood that. It's my mistake. I live with my wifes parents as well and have a very good relationship with the people in the community that I live in.

I agree with what you wrote here as well. It is an important part of life here, yet I am different in some ways as family comes before work. Some people accept and appreciate that whilst others have a rather difficult time accepting that.

Question for you Glenski have you ever met any of the "martyr" types that I described above, or anyone similar to that?

Glenski said:

William, you have brought up 2 separate points here. Being a "precious foreigner" immersed in the culture here and denying other gaijin vs. reverse culture shock.

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i was reflecting about myself regarding feeling special when i returned from japan. i was surprised when i was in japan that i was made to feel special. that affected me actually and when i was there in mid 80s during the peak of the economy, i got inured to that feeling...

Glenski said:

They may do stupid or humiliating things consciously or unconsciously. Not knowing vs. blatantly ignoring.
What do you mean by norms and rules of Japanese culture constructed by another gaijin? Aren't those rules and norms constructed by the Japanese?

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no i mean the rules constructed by gaijin who think that these rules are norms of japanese behaviour. ie the rule that some gaijin have taken as japanese when they are not.

Glenski said:

I disagree, William, at least in part. Yes, that is perhaps one reason, but from day one I have never felt the urge to greet or acknowledge other foreigners. Not once. I'm not an introvert, either, nor have I been exposed to a home society where you don't look others in the eye on the street. It's just my way, and I've expressed this many times on threads like the one you mentioned about greeting foreigners.[?QUOTE]

the obvious question is why don't you feel the urge to acknowledge? you may be a negative case in terms of the general group which makes your answer even more intriguing. sure i am not saying that every gaijin who is new or old to japan will feel obliged to acknowledge. i am looking for patterns though. i agree that it has to be case by case, though there are so many cases that support the phenomenon of acknowledgement in some way. indeed not acknowledging also needs to be understood too.

japangirlcmw said:

Its like the word 'otaku'. If used in a certain way, it is derogatory.

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hmmm, otaku is a good example right...how it is said in a situation...like it's the wrong thing to be.

i'm tending toward otakudom in my own otaku way... here in australia there's a company which sells and distributes anime and translated manga called madman and they also have a line called 'otaku wear' clothes for the otaku...perhaps gaijin wear?

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Obeika said:

Question for you Glenski have you ever met any of the "martyr" types that I described above, or anyone similar to that?

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Frankly, I was very confused at your description of the martyr because it seemed to blend in with your description of super gaijin.

Martyr:
feel sorry for me because I suffered through every possible experience there is known to mankind/womenkind while living here in Japan

Super gaijin:
I know I've forgotten more about the history, nuances, and locality than you've even begun to learn. I've got a huge chip on my shoulder feel sorry for me and I'll help you out or go f*** yourself, type super hyper gaijin...

Are these accurate enough distinctions?

Never met the martyr type. People down on their luck, yes, but they were either clueless about their problems (and the solutions), or they were more angry at life than sad.
Met a few people approaching the super gaijin type, but NONE who actually had a chip AND said feel sorry for them. That's an odd combination. The near-super gaijin I've met were simply arrogant types.

William wrote:

the obvious question is why don't you feel the urge to acknowledge? you may be a negative case in terms of the general group which makes your answer even more intriguing.

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My answer is pretty simple although multi-level:

1) I don't acknowledge/greet strangers back home. Why do it here?
2) Since it is easier to identify someone (not everyone) as "fellow foreigners" here by one's appearance, one might think we should all somehow join forces and wish each other well, even with only a nod of acknowledgement or a spoken word. I don't feel that obligation. I don't know strangers and simply passing one on the street doesn't obligate me to initiate any form of greeting.
3) Why should I say "hello", or some other English greeting when the non-Asian foreigner may not even speak English? Arrogant of one to think that every non-Asian speaks English, isn't it? [I wrote non-Asian because some people cannot distinguish many Asians from each other, so it is possible to see a non-Japanese Asian person and not even know whether they are a foreigner.]

Of course, if I am acknowledged or greeted, I respond in kind.
Of course, if I am somehow interacting with a fellow foreigner (at a meeting, at a hotel buffet, bumping into someone, needing assistance, etc.), I would have to do something instead of ignore them, but the question seems to be only about greeting or acknowledging a foreigner (or perceived foreigner) on the street for that fleeting moment when you see each other.

Of course, if I am acknowledged or greeted, I respond in kind.

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Hmm, but why, you already said that this stranger has no relation to you?

William Spencer said:

the obvious question is why don't you feel the urge to acknowledge? you may be a negative case in terms of the general group which makes your answer even more intriguing.

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Personally, aside from close friends I had zero desire to associate with other gaijin. I couldn't care less what they were doing in Japan. I didn't even like meeting Eikaiwa teachers outside the few branches that I routinely circulated amongst. Even within those branches, I felt some of the other teachers were real dummies and avoided them. Sounds pompous I know, but in my own defense these were the ones who couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paper bag, constnatly complained about things in Japan, balked at their schedules, etc.

Anyway, I still maintain that depending on the attitude you've arrived with I think you're either going to be open to meeting all kinds of other Western gaijin because you need the social interaction, or you'll be completely indifferent and more focused on your own Japan experience. For example, those teachers who choose to be posted in a more 'inaka' location are probably not interested in meeting more gaijin, in a way they've indicated that being alone would be okay and possibly preferable to meeting other gaijins. They've got their own agenda.. studying, cultural immersion, site-seeing, etc. Then there are those who gravitate towards a more social scene, probably towards Tokyo or Osaka, open to the idea of communally enjoying their experience with others like themselves, lots of clubbing, drinking, etc. Life hasn't changed much for them aside from the location. For them English speaking interaction is an absolute necessity. They'd be a little less content on their own in a rural area or with very few gaijins like the former group.

So, those who are seeking or open to lots of contact with more gaijins will probably try to live in a large urban area, and vice versa. However there's going to be overlap, so you'll have people living in Tokyo creating their own personal experience and avoiding other gaijin, and by contrast some pretty chatty and needy gaijins looking for other gaijins to chat with who got stuck out in the rural areas.

But theses are, in my opinion, the two most prevalent mindsets of people who go over for mid-long term stays. Every spectrum of inter-gaijin dynamic will somehow boil down to whether that person needs to meet more gaijin or doesnt. For example the independent one may be friendly towards the needy one and everyone gets along for the night since they're kind of forced together, but when the needy one says 'Hey let's hang out again, lets exchange numbers' at the end of the night, I'd bet the independent one will most likely never call that person, they simply dont need or want to because they've got a million things to do that don't include sitting around an izakaya speaking in English and talking about work for yet another night.

It sounds to me like most of the people here are independent, well established within their Japanese experience, possess language skills sufficient to maintain that independence, and really aren't in Japan to party and meet more gaijins. I'd guess that you wouldn't find the ones who want constant acknowledgement and validation on this message board.

gaijinalways wrote:

Glenski:Of course, if I am acknowledged or greeted, I respond in kind.

Hmm, but why, you already said that this stranger has no relation to you?

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I meant that if someone were to say hello or nod at me, I wouldn't snub them or walk across the street to avoid them. I would simply not make the first move. No point in it.

I know Glenski, just ribbing you a bit. I don't even feel obligated to always answer, especially if I'm in the middle of rushing off somewhere.

when i first went to japan 1985-1988 i lived in kokura (kitakyushu) for 2 years then went up to T to attend uni. kokura at that stage was not on the desirable list for gaijin so there were relatively few in the area (compared to say fukuoka). i had my own share of non-japanese friends who worked for the YMCA but i didn't really socialise with them that much perhaps only in the first few months of getting to know the place. then i got myself into a relationship with a japanese fellow and then it seemed that life was torn between japanese and non-japanese aspects of my one life. i use torn quite deliberately since it seemed to be like that.

when i went to T i live in a really run down gesshuku in numabukuro 6 mat place 1 mat kitchen a japanese toilet...so it was out to the sento each night. i was a student so it was fine and the rent was really cheap! i cannot recall anyone talking to me at the sento...i didn't really talk with anyone either. again i had a few gaijin friends at school and the ymca in kanda whom i occasionally saw outside 'business' hours but with the bf in nakanosakaue and my own stuff i lead basically an 80% japanese existence. did i want to socialise with gaijin? um not really but i never rejected the opportunity based on gaijinness...funny to consider those times again here...

all the other times i have been to japan were short term sojourns so i fall into a blurry category there...but i tend to seek out japanese company rather than gaijin...

now in sydney i have work colleagues who are japanese but rarely socialise with them and a japanese bf and a few other white australian 'mates'. i'd say my life was certaily intertwined with japan but not to the exclusion of anyone else....does all that make any sense?

bakaKanadajin said:

It sounds to me like most of the people here are independent, well established within their Japanese experience, possess language skills sufficient to maintain that independence, and really aren't in Japan to party and meet more gaijins. I'd guess that you wouldn't find the ones who want constant acknowledgement and validation on this message board.

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hmmm this is an interesting comment. i am sure that people in their host communities need to talk about them with others whom are like them ie same or similar nationality or at least another gaijin to compare notes and either ***** about japan or rave about it, even both. why does this message board even exist? i have wondered about this for a while. some theories of cross-cultural adaptation have mentioned ethnic mass communication as a way of offsetting too much culture shock too quickly. many of those theories didn't count on the internet being such a strong force, that is, one can go on line and 'be' back 'home'...