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some questions

tanhql

日本語の学生
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1) what's the difference between 本 and 書 when refering to books? i'm refering to when they are used alone, and not when they are use with other kanji(like 辞書 or 本屋).

2) speaking of 本屋, can every shop/store be said as ～屋? like a cd store would be シティ(CD)屋, vegetable store would be 野菜屋, fish store(fish for eating) would be 魚屋.

3) i've started to learn verbs and their conjugations 2 weeks ago(something i've been trying to avoid, as the conjugations confuse the hell out of me). the conjugations i'm currently learning are the present and past tenses(formal/informal and affirmative/negative forms) and the ~te forms. is it a good way of learning them? or should i be learning every form of a verb? btw, i'm using the basic form of verbs(like 売る,座る etc) as a base to conjugate, and not the ~masu form.

4) still on verbs, when changing a "masu' to 'mashou', does it mean to say 'let's ~'? like 売ります/売りましょう(let's buy), します/しましょう(let's do), 遊びます/遊びましょう(lets play)? does it work everytime, as in i just have to change 'su' to 'shou', no exceptions? and how different is is 行こう different from 行く? is it another form of the verb(like the ~te form)?

5) does かかる means 'take'? what is the kanji, then?

6) how do you count objects? is it like 林檎を一個, 電話を一台, 私は家に猫が一匹います。so other than を and が, there's no other particles connecting numbers+counters with objects? is the difference between を and が the same as は and が? can you say in a different format like 五十二枚カード? for counters that uses native japanese numbers(一つや九つ), how to count over 10?

7) is there a simple rule to memorise the numbers preceding a counter? like how to pronounce 'one', and how to know when to change the pronounciation of the counter, in 一台, 一本, 一匹 etc

thanks.
 
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tanhql said:
1) what's the difference between 本 and 書 when refering to books? i'm refering to when they are used alone, and not when they are use with other kanji(like 辞書 or 本屋).
Click to expand...

Both mean book(s). 本 can be used on its own, but not 書 - it is normally used as a part of compound.
e.g.
辞書 (dictionary), 入門書 (books for beginners), 教科書 (text book), 書棚 (book shelf), 書店(book shop).
It has broader meaning than 本, something written or printed as well.
e.g.
請求書 (debit note/invoice), 証明書 (certificate)

When you want to use 書 just to refer books, you can say 書物 (shomotsu).

tanhql said:
2) speaking of 本屋, can every shop/store be said as ～屋? like a cd store would be シティ(CD)屋, vegetable store would be 野菜屋, fish store(fish for eating) would be 魚屋.
Click to expand...

Yes, 屋 is commonly used for shop/store.
ＣＤ屋 (pronounced シーディーや, but normally written with romaji.)
Green grocer is not 野菜屋 but 八百屋 (yaoya). This is a special case.
With most items you can make xxx shop using 屋.
e.g.
本屋 (hon-ya), 魚屋 (sakanaya), 酒屋 (sakaya), 肉屋 (nikuya), 花屋 (hanaya), 乾物屋 (kanbutsuya), 金物屋 (kanamonoya)

You can also use 店 for some kind of shops.
e.g.
書店 (shoten), 百貨店 (hyakkaten = department store), 小売店 (kouriten = retailer)


Yes, I think ます/ましょう always works.

行きます/行きましょう are both polite form while 行く/行こう are dictionary form.
行きます is a polite form of 行く, 行きましょう of 行こう.

tanhql said:
5) does かかる means 'take'? what is the kanji, then?
thanks.
Click to expand...
When you are talking about time, money, efforts/trouble, you can use かかる.
It is 掛かる in kanji but writing in hiragana is more common.
e.g.
時間がかかる、お金がかかる、費用がかかる、手間がかかる
ここから駅まで徒歩で１時間かかります。 It takes one hour to go to the station on foot.
バスで行くといくらかかりますか。 How long does it take/cost by bus? (could be either time or cost)

かかる has many different meaning, "to take" is just one of them.
 
so 掛かる cannot be used in taking things? like 'take it from him'.
 
tanhql said:
so 掛かる cannot be used in taking things? like 'take it from him'.
Click to expand...
No, you can't because the basic meaning for 掛かる（掛ける in transitive form) is to "expend; use up." All the English definitions for the word are "approximates" of the basic meaning in Japanese.

Another example: お金がかかる
It literally means "will use up money" -> translated into "costly" or "expensive."

The word "take" is the translation in English because you don't say "expend time" in natural English but "take time" instead. This means that you should not take the English definitions literally but as a description of the true concept of the Japanese word. Word in another language does not fall exactly in the same category as an approximate in another.

Hope it helps!
 
So for those who know chinese, 掛かる means 花 in chinese as in 花錢(spend money), 花時間(spend time), etc?
 
tanhql said:
so for those who know chinese, 掛かる means 花 in chinese as in 花錢(spend money), 花時間(spend time), etc?
Click to expand...
Yes. For your "take it from him", you'd use 取る (like 拿 in this sense)
 
花 has negative nuance in it, more like "okane wo muda ni tsukau".

kakaru is more neutral, more similar to "需要"
 
Just a few things I noticed:

1) 売る means "sell," not "buy."

2) To add to undrentide's excellent list, I've also seen 書籍 (shoseki) for "book(s)," like on amazon.co.jp. I believe it probably has a more narrow meaning than 本, but I'm not certain.
 
I don't know about Japanese part, but 書籍 and 書 are virtually used interchangeably in Chinese. They don't use the kanji for "hon" to describe books however.
 
Unless you're counting them or using a demonstrative to modify them: 一本書, 這本書, 那本書, 十二本書, right? What about 我沒看那本書籍?

Yeah, they aren't interchangeable in Japanese, though, like undrentide pointed out. 書 can't be used independently, so 本 in Japanese is like 書 in Chinese (just had to put something related to Japanese in there ).
 
Glenn said:
Just a few things I noticed:
1) 売る means "sell," not "buy."
Click to expand...
i've sorta wrote the wrong translation(i know the meaning, but type in the wrong translation)

Glenn said:
Unless you're counting them or using a demonstrative to modify them: 一本書, 這本書, 那本書, 十二本書, right? What about 我沒看那本書籍?
Click to expand...
in chinese, when used alone(without numbers), counters is understood to mean 'one'. you can also say 那一本書, 這一本書, 我沒看那一本書籍.

i'm a chinese(english as first language), so sometimes i can use chinese to learn japanese, like the counters.

and can anyone answer that counting question?
 
I think shoseki does have a more technical flavor and refers more to the physically processing and buying/selling of printed materials which is also wide enough to include non-bound copies of different categories of things (manuscripts, scrolls, etc).
 
Glenn said:
I've also seen 書籍 (shoseki) for "book(s)," like on amazon.co.jp. I believe it probably has a more narrow meaning than 本, but I'm not certain.
Click to expand...
I wonder why I did not remember this word, which is far more commonly used than 書物!

I agree with the first part - 書籍 sounds more technical than 本.
As for the latter part, I think it is 図書 which covers wider range of printed matter - but this is only my feeling... I'm not sure.

I want to be precise, and try to find more detailed definition for 本, 書物, 書籍 and 図書.
Most dictionaries do not help much, as typical definition is:
本：書物。書籍。
書籍：本。書物。図書。
書物：本。書籍。図書。
図書：書籍。書物。本。


新明解国語辞典 offers more interesting entry for each word.
本：（１）人に読んでもらいたいことを書い（印刷し）てまとめた物。書物。広義では雑誌や一枚刷りの絵・図を含み、狭義では除く。
(2)書籍・図書の汎称
書籍：（個人の知識の源泉となり、生活を高め豊かにするものとしての）本。
書物：「本」の漢語的表現。
図書：(1)「書物」の漢語的表現。(2) 公共が備え付ける本・図版、その他の文献資料をひとつの総合体としてとらえた称。

Most of them do not even tell whether it should be bound or not necessarily, for instance, but reflect the view of the editor on these things. Definition for 書籍 made me smile.
 
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You can use が or を only when the noun being counted is subject （が） or object （を）.
e.g.

りんごがひとつあります。
りんごをひとつ食べます。

Because in Japanese the "obvious" can be omitted, so the above sentence can be written in certain context as
りんごがひとつ
りんごをひとつ
but が and を are not used to connect the number and noun directly.

When you want to modify a noun with numbers, you can use の.
e.g.
ひとつのりんご
一匹の犬
三件の家
五本の木
六台の車

From 1 to 9 you can use Japanese （和語、やまとことば） counter
ひとつ、ふたつ、みっつ、よっつ、いつつ、むっつ、ななつ、やっつ、ここのつ、とお
and over 10, ordinary numbers should be used
十一（じゅういち）、十二（じゅうに）.... 二十（にじゅう）...三百（さんびゃく）...五千（ごせん）...
which is often followed by a counter 個.
e.g.
りんごがひとつ、りんごがふたつ.... りんごがここのつ、りんごがとお、りんごが十一個、りんごが十二個...
(Somtimes people prefer to use ordinary number from 10, i.e. りんごが十個)


tanhql said:
7) is there a simple rule to memorise the numbers preceding a counter? like how to pronounce 'one', and how to know when to change the pronounciation of the counter, in 一台, 一本, 一匹 etc
thanks.
Click to expand...

Normally number is pronounced as it is:
いち、に、さん、よん、ご、ろく、なな、はち、きゅう、じゅう
e.g.
台：いちだい、にだい、さんだい、よんだい、ごだい、ろくだい、ななだい、はちだい、きゅうだい、じゅうだい
枚：いちまい、にまい、さんまい、よんまい、ごまい、ろくまい、ななまい、はちまい、きゅうまい、じゅうまい

But with some counters, pronunciation changes:
いっ、に、さん、よん、ご、ろっ、なな、はっ、きゅう、じっ
I think this happens when the counter begins with k. (Might be more, but cannot think of right now...)
e.g.
階：いっかい、にかい、さんかい、よんかい、ごかい、ろっかい、ななかい、はっかい、きゅうかい、じっかい
件：いっけん、にけん、さんけん、よんけん、ごけん、ろっけん、ななけん、はっけん、きゅうけん、じっけん

いっ、に、さん、よん、ご、ろく、なな、はっ、きゅう、じっ
When the counter begins with t, 六 stays as ろく.
e.g.
反：いったん、にたん、さんたん、よんたん、ごたん、ろくたん、ななたん、はったん、きゅうたん、じったん
点：いってん、にてん、さんてん、よんてん、ごてん、ろくてん、ななてん、はってん、きゅうてん、じってん

When the counter begins with h, the counter itself also changes:
いっ、に、さん、よん、ご、ろっ、なな、はっ、きゅう、じっ
e.g.
版（はん）：いっぱん、にはん、さんぱん、よんはん、ごはん、ろっぱん、ななほん、はっぱん、きゅうはん、じっぱん
歩（ほ）：いっぽ、にほ、さんぼ、よんほ、ごほ、ろっぽ、ななほ、はっぽ、きゅうほ、じっぽ
本（ほん）：いっぽん、にほん、さんぼん、よんほん、ごほん、ろっぽん、ななほん、はっぽん、きゅうほん、じっぽん
遍（へん）：いっぺん、にへん、さんべん、よんへん、ごへん、ろっぺん、ななへん、はっぺん、きゅうへん、じっぺん

There might be more variation and some exceptions.
Anyone who can think of it, please post!
 
すごいっすよ、undrentideさん！なんて詳細な説明！

Wow, that's really detailed! I think you hit all of the major sound changes. Also note that these happen with 漢語 as well, like 絶対 -> ぜつ + たい = ぜったい.

お疲れ様でした、undrentideさん！
 
書物：「本」の漢語的表現。
Click to expand...
文脈がつかめないですね。 でも、今、読んでいる宗教的な冊子では、「本」の代わりに
「書物」がよく使われますよ。この場合、この言葉は、聖書を指すのです。

多分、ただ「本」より「書物」のほうが硬い言い方のでしょうか？
 
OK, well, forget that. I asked someone who should actually know and here is his opinion : I'm assuming it's the only difference.

ただ「本」より「書物」のほうが硬い言い方です。
 
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