should, want

tanhql · 30 Apr 2007

誰か教えて頂けませんか？

～でしょう (probability)
～べきです
～(の)方がいい (better to ~)

i know all three have different meanings of 'should' (as written in the brackets), but which meaning of 'should' does べき mean?

does べき have a kanji?

食べたい
食べたがる

can anyone give examples regarding the above two translations of 'want' to show the difference between the both of them?

also, is the kanji correct for these conjugations?

探し続ける
探す筈

どうもありがとう。

Glenn · 30 Apr 2007

tanhql said:
i know all three have different meanings of 'should' (as written in the brackets), but which meaning of 'should' does べき mean?

Obligation.

早めに申し込むべきだ。
"You should/must apply soon."

tanhql said:
does べき have a kanji?

Yes: 可き (also 羃 is given), but don't write it that way. I don't think I've ever seen it written that way, even in older texts.

tanhql said:
食べたい
食べたがる

can anyone give examples regarding the above two translations of 'want' to show the difference between the both of them?

（私は）リンゴが食べたい。
"I want to eat (an) apple(s)."

（彼は）リンゴを食べたがっている。
"He's showing strong signs of wanting to eat (an) apple(s)."

The latter is used when someone is showing outward signs of wanting to do something, like he's been talking about apples and how they're so awesome all day or something (or in the case of リューク his body gets all twisted 'cause he's going into withdrawal).

tanhql said:
Yes, but no one writes はず that way as far as I've seen.

Yes, but no one writes 窶堙坂?堋ｸ that way as far as I've seen.

Mikawa Ossan · 30 Apr 2007

Glenn said:
Yes, but no one write はず that way as far as I've seen.

I've seen it written like this, but not in anything written in my lifetime!

Glenn · 30 Apr 2007

Now that I think about it, I vaguely remember coming across it once or twice, but as you say, the material was written way before my time.

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2007

Yes: 可き (also 羃 is given), but don't write it that way. I don't think I've ever seen it written that way, even in older texts.

I haven't either. Which leads me think it probably means something completely different....On the other hand, given the over used and abused state of my IME, not even 可き will show properly.

Mikawa Ossan · 30 Apr 2007

Find the 可き !!

bunmeiron no gairyaku maki-4
行く可き処に行き着いたのです (宮本百合子)

Incidentally, (and I didn't know this until just now, but) the kanji 冪 has a completely different meaning. It means "exponents" in the sense of 3x3 or "3 to the 2nd power", although 累乗（るいじょう） is much more common, I think.

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2007

tanhql said:
～(の)方がいい (better to ~)

りんごを食べるほうがいい It is better/preferable that you eat the apple
りんごを食べたほうがいい（でしょう） You (probably) should/had better eat the apple
りんごを食べないほうがいい You shouldn't/dare not eat the apple...

探し続ける
探す筈

Those look fine to me. You're aware this is the 探す to search for something wanted or needed, right ? 捜す being particularly used for lost items (hunting for criminals as a major exception). Again, watch for strange kanji displays. はず is almost always written in hiragana. I've personally never seen it any other way.

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2007

（私は）リンゴが食べたい。
"I want to eat (an) apple(s)."

I don't know the deal some people have with using が。。。たい but in any case, if this is confusing @tanhql , the normal pattern is to make it with an を。

Mikawa Ossan · 30 Apr 2007

Elizabeth said:
I don't know the deal some people have with using が。。。たい but in any case, if this is confusing tanhql , the normal pattern is to make it with an を。

Although grammatically, が is correct and を is not.

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2007

Mikawa Ossan;462043 said:
Although grammatically, が is correct and を is not.

Although を has apparently been used since Meiji times per epigene-san and her masterful husband, which makes it grammatical enough for me.
Regarding the が Particle | Japan Forum

正しい使い方を知りつつ、現在使われている自然な会話言葉も使いこなせるのが理想ですね。

undrentide · 30 Apr 2007

Elizabeth said:
I don't know the deal some people have with using が。。。たい but in any case, if this is confusing tanhql, the normal pattern is to make it with an を。

It might be a question of personal feeling, but to me ～を食べたい sounds unnatural - as if someone translated it from English or some other European language in which "eat" takes "object".

According to the dictionary both が and を are valid.

goo辞書 said:
たい
（助動）(たかろ・たかつ（たく）・たい・たい・たけれ・○)
〔古語の助動詞「たし」の転。中世以降の語〕動詞および助動詞「れる・られる」「せる・させる」の連用形に接続する。
(1)話し手自身の希望を表す。
「おもしろい本が読み〈たい〉」「ぜひ私が行き〈たかっ〉た」
(2)話し手以外の人の希望を表す。
「帰り〈たけれ〉ば帰ってもよい」「大学へ行き〈たく〉ても行けない人もいるのだ」
(3)「ある」「である」などに付いて、他に対する願望を表す。…てほしい。…であってほしい。
「常にこうあり〈たい〉ものだ」「交通事故のない町であり〈たい〉とみんな願っている」
〔(1)連用形「たく」が接続助詞「て」を伴って用いられる場合、「たくって」のように、促音「っ」が挿入されることがある。「母に早く会い〈たくっ〉てしようがない」(2)連用形には音便の形「とう」もあり、「ございます」「存じます」などに続く場合に用いられる。「絵がかき〈とう〉ございます」「お礼にうかがい〈とう〉存じます」(3)他動性の動詞に付く場合、希望の対象になる語は「が」または「を」で示される。「水〈が〉飲み〈たい〉」「水〈を〉飲み〈たい〉」〕

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2007

(3)他動性の動詞に付く場合、希望の対象になる語は「が」または「を」で示される。「水〈が〉飲み〈たい〉」「水〈を〉飲み〈たい〉」〕

そうですね。

欲しいもの、希望を強く表すのに「が」が使われることが多いと思いますね。または、
「が」を使うのは、好み、択一の場合を指し示す時でしょうね。

tanhql · 30 Apr 2007

thanks for the answers.

also, is there any differences between 分かりに and 分かる為に? 'cause i've read on a website that they both mean 'in order to understand'.

undrentide · 30 Apr 2007

tanhql said:
thanks for the answers.

also, is there any differences between 分かりに and 分かる為に? 'cause i've read on a website that they both mean 'in order to understand'.

I don't think there's an expression 分かりに.
Maybe it is part of 分かりにくい (hard to understand)?
You can write 為に but kana （ために） is more commonly used, I think.

tanhql · 30 Apr 2007

undrentide said:
I don't think there's an expression 分かりに.
Maybe it is part of 分かりにくい (hard to understand)?
You can write 為に but kana （ために） is more commonly used, I think.

this page says base 2 + に means 'in order to ~' (number 9).

undrentide · 1 May 2007

tanhql said:
this page says base 2 + に means 'in order to ~' (number 9).

You can use ～に to state the purpose, with most verbs, e.g.
走りに
買いに
食べに
etc.

But you cannot use it with certain verbs such as 分かる, same about 知る.
(Not sure what rule applies to this, though.)

Glenn · 1 May 2007

I've never seen that construction without a verb of motion following it.

should, want

tanhql

日本語の学生

Glenn

一切皆苦

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Glenn

一切皆苦

Elizabeth

先輩

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

tanhql

日本語の学生

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

tanhql

日本語の学生

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Glenn

一切皆苦

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