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Selfish Pigs

You must live near me Rich, that sounds familiar!

:blush:[/QUOTE]


Believe! I wish I was still living in North London...
 
I find it a little hard to believe that one would see SO MANY incidents on a train in such a short period of time. I find it even harder to believe that anyone with tact would insult their own girlfriend's nationality in front of dozens of other Japanese.

Why would you consider ranting and raving about how bad Japanese people are and diss your own girlfriend?

It sounds to me like you should have just stayed in the states and gone to little Tokyo or something. You need a Japan-lite. Obviously you went to Japan expecting it to be heaven on earth, and found out that reality applies to all nations, regardless of geographic location.

Japan is not the only place that has problems on the trains, and to be honest if I saw you giving candy to an apparent stranger, an 11 year old girl on the train I'd think it was a little strange too, though not for the same reasons. I was taught as a youngster never to accept candy from strangers. But that's just me.

Too many people are travelling to asia with the idea that it's so much better than where they just came from. If you can't handle reality with all its trials and tribulations, go find asia-lite in your own city in your home country. It'll spare the rest of us from reading over dramatic posts like this on internet forums.

Just my 2 cents. (1 cent with the exchange rate.)
 
my two

paradoxbox said:
I find it a little hard to believe that one would see SO MANY incidents on a train in such a short period of time.
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How do you know how long he has been here? Someone said he had been here for 4 years. It seems quite possible to me that he could have experienced these within the scope of a year. Let alone four.

I don't consider it tactless to point out selfish or heartless behavior. Tactless to me would be to tell a retarded person he is retarded, or a handicapped person...or to ridicule some not-native's bad English or Nihongo. Tell your mom she looks old etc.

But, in some cases, honesty takes precendence over tact, in the name of positive change.

Which brings us to the point of... who is to say what is positive? I suppose it is an induvidual choice. Still ,who wants to raise their hand and tell why it isn't positive to help a needy, helpless stranger? One might argue that those who sneer at an altruistic act, are merely rationalizing their own selfish attitudes.

Sounds like there might be a bit of jealousy talking in some of these replys.
 
i think it is great that he helped those people or tried too. his generalization is a little harsh but it is not far from the japanese male stereotype, and well if we think that then ofcourse japanese think of all of us as the stereotyped slutty gaijin. there is nothing we can do, there is no point crying over spilt milk, the point is you had milk. it doesnt matter if no one helped the people in trouble, the important thing is that you did. we as people should not worry about what other people think, but that is a hard skill to master.
 
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If I said something like that in front of my girlfriend I would be ashamed, and it would hurt her so much. I have no doubt she'd passively stand by if she saw someone lying on the ground unless I told her to do otherwise. This is just pretty common Japanese behavior. They grew up with it. It's ingrained in their minds. Only citizens who've left Japan or have extraordinary personalities (Or are police/hospital personel) are likely to assist someone in an incapacitated state.

We can just as easily accuse all gaijin as fitting the mold that some Japanese natives have; we are all barbaric savages that are trying to ruin the country. Sounds far fetched but there's PLENTY of Japanese out there that believe this.

Just like you've been conditioned to respond to an incident such as the ones you had (Which I still think is unbelieveable, having lived in and commuted daily in several HUGE cities for years and witnessing only 1 accident on the train system), Japanese have been conditioned NOT to respond to those kinds of incidents. And it's not only in Japan, there are many other things that go on in a city such as New York in broad view of hundreds of people, yet assistance is not given even when called for.

I think maybe some people just leave thinking the grass is greener on the other side, then find out it's the exact same yard.
 
Diffusion of responsibilty leading to the bystander effect. The more people there are, the less likely it is that someone will help. Just like the Kitty Genovese case where her neighbors didn't help her even though they knew she was being raped and murdered. I'm to lazy to paraphrase so ill just steal it from wikipedia.


The effect seems more common in Japan though, and I think its because of the group mentality culture. This would be a great topic to conduct some experiments on.
 
I am back in Japan is a few weeks and I am now just blown away by the experiences posted here. My Japanese girlfriend is beautiful and we do get looked at all the time but no one has actually said anything. In fact, as my Japanese is not very good yet she is quick to jump in and deal with anything that is said to me positive or negative. In a way she seems almost to be protecting me and perhaps it has something to do with the perceived protection she often said I gave her when she was in Australia. What this thread has done is at least made me more aware of the collective behaviour of some Japanese people. All I can do is to be positive and simply act as my conscience dictates. I am not out there to try and change Japan or its culture. I think the forces of change will eventually take hold on Japan, and that revolution will be from within rather than from any persistant ear bashing from us foreigners.
 
The phenomena that a man or woman who is in trouble in a train or bus but no one comes to help, can be found mostly in big cities. But I think those passengers and bystanders are indeed bad educated people, who might have been well educated about career and not losing the face instead of being kindly and ready to help your other citizens.
The behavior is mostly bounded to the society you live. The more people in a society/place live, the more anonymious the people become where nobody greets anyone, unlike in the more calm and rural places.
I think in most world's societies, it is time to re-invent "social behavior" at the schools to teach the kids about respect, braveness, brotherly love and the will to help others.
 
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On my first visit to Japan I noticed several girls struggling with huge luggage, even when accompanied by (male) friends who were carrying nothing. I was astounded. When I returned to London, on the way home from Heathrow I noticed two Japanese girls struggling to get a huge, aluminuim suitcase up some stairs. At that time all I could muster in Japanese was 'daijoubu?' and then I gently took the case and carried it to the top. They then spent what seemed like 5 minutes bowing, bobbing, giggling and saying 'sumimasen' as if it was the first time they'd experienced such a commonplace courtesy.
I've been in Tokyo 3 years now and have never witnessed a Japanese male assist a woman in need. However, I've seen women helping each other (eg carrying a baby buggy down stairs) very often.
I have one good experience though- I (incredibly embarrassingly) dropped my 400cc motorcycle outside a post office. Before I could utter my first profanity, two Japanese guys were at my side helping to get the bike rubber-side down! (ie vertical.)
As for being stared at when out with my Japanese girlfriend... I've never really experienced that from males, but older women often look at *her* as if she's some form of low life (what are you doing with a gaijin!!) I read somewhere that Beat Takeshi made some very rude comments on TV about Japanese girls who date foreigners, but have never been able to verify it. Has anyone heard something similar?
EDIT: re being stared at by males. I've just remembered an incident that occurred during the last stages of my relationship with my previous Japanese girlfriend. We having a very quiet but stressful discussion on a train, which ended when she said something derogatory about me as we stood up to alight. The look of evil delight on the faces of several Japanese guys will haunt me forever... ("ha, you're history, gaijin!")
 

From what I have heard, the people in Hokkiaido are more friendly and treat foreigners better then those on the mainland. Koreans love Hokkaido because there they don't look down on them like they would in for ex. Tokyo. (A gaijin traveller said so in some documenatry I saw..that's my source..)
 
Much as I hate bumping old threads, with allot more experience in Japan under my belt, I can share some stories.

Its 6:30pm, Yamanote line, Akihabara station. The Keihintohoku line which runs parallel to the Yamanote is stopped because of an accident, so the Yamanote line is far more crowded. I'm in the front most carriage, next to the third door on the train and hear some voices and shouting from the frontmost part of the train - "'Ç'¢'āI" Get out of my way! Everyone gets off the train onto the platform and two Japanese men help a much older foreign lady off the train, while another runs down the platform to get a staff member. They carry her off (can't see much from the back where I was) and the train takes off without them.

My girlfriend has anaemia, which means that at its worst times simply climbing a set of stairs or running a short distance will make her faint or worst case have a slight seizure. The few occasions this has been a problem in public strangers have stopped to help me almost immediately - when she fainted on a train I had people jump up and offer their seats on a crowded Saikyo line - once she fainted while out partying in Shinjuku and some young guys helped me carry her to Karaoke and paid for a few hours (without me knowing, was a nice surprise) - and one time she passed out on the platform and quite a few people asked if she was alright while walking by.

When I've asked for help I've never been refused. When I have not understood something, people have gone out of their way to convey the meaning.

If you want to play the insensitive and selfish game, I have plenty of stories from back home in Australia. The litter, graffiti and vandalism, the harassment and general sense of danger are all things that you do not get in Japan that show immense and constant selfishness and disregard for others.

Child_prey said:
(A gaijin traveller said so in some documenatry I saw..that's my source..)
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Who spent how long in Japan? Had been where in Japan? Had done what in Japan? Its just one person as well, I'd take anything I saw with a grain of salt and consider it to be unique and not average or normal.
 
None of the original story surprises me. It is everyone for themself on the subway in Tokyo. When I lived there, and was pregnant, there were quite a few occasions when no -one stopped to help when I fainted from anaemia walking up some stairs, and some young office ladies had to have a discussion about it before eventually giving up their seat to me, on a long train ride home!
There are a 'few' gentlemen about, but from what I remember, everyone is just so busy getting where they are going, they don't really care about anything or anyone that is going to hold them up.
This is not a 'Ladies first' society, that is not going to change, so it is something one has to accept if you are going to live here.
 
Ewok85 said:
Who spent how long in Japan? Had been where in Japan? Had done what in Japan? Its just one person as well, I'd take anything I saw with a grain of salt and consider it to be unique and not average or normal.
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If I remember right, he was travelling around japan for a month and visited/interviewed several different people from different backgrounds and places so it was a good documentary. The people in Hokkaido shared their stories (other travellers) adn they all agreed that the people in Hokkaido are more tolerant to stangers then theny are in the mainland.


I feel that too, I live in a big city and people are colder here then they are in a small town. Ex, there was this time (here in sweden) when some guys beat up some guy on the tram, during the day, with the tram full of people watching, no reaction. Sadly, most people today lack civil courage adn let this things happend. Of course, there are times when they do react but to get back to my point, it does seem like a big city thing.
 
I agree. I have been to many big cities and I lived in Osaka for over 3 years and I noticed the same reaction to things going around people. They would just ignore it and get off at the next stop but in outlying areas such as Niigata and Mie Prefectures people were very nice and helpful.
 
I personally think you should call them on it when they give you dirty looks. Especially if you can speak impeccable Japanese, which some of us can do. Getting a lecture from a foreigner on social responsability might just be smarting enough to make them reconsider ignoring someone in distress. Especially if that foreigner is an "imperialistic pig that willfully kills and slaughters anyone not of his empire." Questioning their civility, and asking why a barbarian savage would be willing to help someone while they are happy to let a fellow countryman/countrywoman suffer might make them think. And if it doesn't, then they would have never thought about it anyway, and you've done no harm.

There are ignoramuses everywhere, in every culture. Often enough Americans look the other way in New York City when someone was getting mugged. "It's none of my business, it isn't my problem" is often a metropolitan mindset regardless of what nation you are from. At least, however, that is cowardice, though, not ignorance.
 
I call it big city syndrome

I like all the viewpoints I am reading. This is great dialogue. I think something is being missed here. I have been to Japan many times and have seen first hand the good and bad, but I think the main thing people have to understand is that Japan is not the west. Sure they have technology, American fast food joints, rampant consumerism like many western societies, however, the thing that separates them from the west is that they are totally different culture from the east with different thinking, societal norms and customs. Go to any non-western society, and you are going to find some messed up and perhaps disturbing things. I totally agree that it is wrong to not help people in need and feel like strangling some people I see on those trainis, but if you try to remember that you are in Japan and not some nice little hamlet in south Texas where everyone waves and says "howdy". There are many nice things and unfortunately to our western standards, some harshness in Japan too.
Here is the best way to describe my point: I think most of this negativity is stemming from one's experiences in Tokyo and perhaps other large cities in Japan. I think this kind of wackyness if you will can be found in any large city throughout the world. For example in Paris, I think a good chunk of the people there are rude, self centered snobs (probably what most people think of France as a whole), however, as you get outside the city and start visiting the countryside, you get a different look and experience much more friendliness and open arms almost. People are more relaxed outside of the big city. I call it the sardine effect - I live in Seattle - if you put 10 million people in Seattle, this place would be a cramped nuthouse. It is a lot of stressed out, overworked people, who have basically snapped living in very cramped quarters - there is your reason for some of this negativity you may be experiencing.
I admit I bounced around and may not have gotten to my point, but I think you can go to any major city around the world and you will find a lot of screwed up people. I bet in Tokyo, you notice this troublesome selfishness a lot more in the summer months than in the winter. If I were wearing a suit (jacket included) in 95 degree weather with 100% humidity, I would probably go F*&^ing cuckoo too.
Just visit any major city in the world and tell me how normal you think the average citizen is in that city. I can name a few already that don't pass the test - Rome, Paris, New York, Moscow, London, Berlin, Beijing, San Francisco...you will also find some of the greatest culture and experiences in these same cities !!
 
Tokyo:
Guy gets on train obviously after drinking with co-workers. Sways a lil bit and then throws up on the train. Immediately younger people move out of the way and just stare. While a middle aged woman and friend I guess offer the man some plastic bags they were using to carry purchased item sin as he used his hankerchief to clean up his mess. While cleaning up the woman comforts the man rubbing his back and asking him is he ok.

1st time in Tokyo me and some friends are staring at the subway map quite confused on how to use the token machine.....yea yea should have studied up. Anyhow young man probably around our age or older comes right up to us and asks if we need help. We explain what is going on and he helps us with simple instructions on how to use the machine. Now o'course he probably helped b/c we didn't speak much Japanese at the time. And he spoke EXCELLENT english.

Not everyone in Japan is ignorant as many people like to point out.
 
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Damicci, good points there with the story.
Anyway a few comments here, I find it sad to see so many people enjoying jumping on the band wagon want to bash through generalizations the Japanese people.

I wonder if any of the people making complaints here about how the Japanese "don't" react or help out, have ever taken the time to try and figure out the reasons for it. And I am not talking about the over generalizations or simplification using assine terminology.

Think, there are reasons for people not assisting others. Once there was a time, and to many people I know still now to this day as well, from what I was told since coming to live here, that if someone helped out a person who was let's say bleeding or dying whatever. (Something that any "average" westerner would run to help with) and per chance the person died the "HELPER" could be found liable as well for the persons death.

I personally have helped out at a couple of accidents scences here in Okinawa, and I was gently scolded afterwards by family members following one of the accidents, not out of concern for the whether the people I helped lived or died, but what might have happened in the "worst case" scenario. They actually thought I was pretty brave for doing it, but a bit "dumb" for getting involved in the first place.

That is one reason, here is another thing to think about. In a group, or when someone thinks they are a part of a group, they act as a group, with out much thought or feeling to those outside of the group. Which is instilled in Japanese kids from a very young age.

The people outside the group of course are those that fell, and sometimes there are those that don't quite fit into the group mentality for whatever reason and are helpful to any and all.

Just food for thought or discussion. I didnt put them here to justify the actions of the people involved, just to ask people here to ttry to think of things from a different perspective.

It is often very easy just to see or take things that an individual experiences at face value.

Were the people involved wrong for not assisting, maybe so, maybe not. Is it possible that the OP over reacted, I dont know. Were the "looks" that he recieved actually looks of contempt or is it possible that he misinterpreted their meaning, I don't know that either.

But it is very easy to take things at face value and then adjust the interpretation of those actions fit any scenario that the viewer chooses.
 
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That same liability exists in foreign countries - if you do a first aid course one of the first things that is talked about is how the law affects you, and in an emergency what you are liable for - example - if you perform CPR you must continue doing so until paramedics arrive. Its the same as how paramedics do not stop treating a patient until they are declared dead by a doctor.
 
my point is dont lump all japanese people in the same category
doing this may make people think you are an ignorant naive racist
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Too late.

This guy as far as I can tell is a bitter hateful husk, why is he like this? god knows. So many foreigners come to Japan for some obscure reason, Then proclaim their altruistic intentions and genuine disgust at real or emagined wrong-doings and injustices.


Suffice to say someone who accuses an entire nation of men as rapists and worse is in my books, not impartial and definately not well meaning.

the troll said:
I am not bitter about that
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Well your bitter about something.

My honest advise?.


Take a long vacation to somewhere far away from other human beings and dont come back until you've found yourself and sorted out whatever emotional crippling handicap you are carrying. You think your the first foreigner to go to Japan and have a bad time then rant how its all Japans fault?.

There are two types of foreigners in Japan. Those who get over their easily bruised self important egos and those who dont.

Don't try to psycho analyze me until you know the whole story. Don't read in things that are not there. If you think Japan is a perfect place, good for you. Go on living in your fantasy world. Leave the worlds problems for the grown ups.
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Again you think calling an entire country's worth of men as maliciously intentioned rapists and slave drivers as somehow emotionally and mentally balanced?. If anything mate, the only one in a fantasy world is you.

No-one claims Japan to be perfect in this thread, but then again, we also dont behave so utterly offensive and insulting to an entire country.

Some parts of the world, like, oh I dont know, say the western world, would considor your attitude....perhaps....Racist.

If you are too cowardly to address a problem and choose to sweep it under the rug, then you certainly wouldn't have the minimal human decency to help a needy stranger.
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And where, praytell, is your almighty good samaritan attitude when third world children are starving to death? why do you chose to rant insultingly about Japan instead of going off to an african country and helping the really needy?.

You sir, are a grade A high quality hypocrit. I find you insulting and offensive and quite frankly, I have no sympathy for you.


Well said.


Normal people, when they get rejected for help, tend to shrug it off and get on with their lives. I find it hard to believe you genuinly feel hurt at being rejected for help, especially considering the tone and attitude of the rest of your bile.

If you had just tried to be the good samaritan, and continued to offer help, and give it when accepted, you would have come off as the good guy, unfortunately your contemptuous rant totally destroyed that.

In my eyes the only bad guy in these stories is you.


I pity your situation, and I feel bad that something in or about Japan made you this way, but the fact is, normal people get over things, and most normal folk can handle problems better then to be so utterly hateful and offensive towards and entire country.

Most points have been covered by other members, I especially liked the one about how many foreign guys come to Japan to take advantage of the local women, altruism my ***.

People have offered stories of Japanese helping others to smash your rant out the window.

Frankly, with these hate-rants, I'm not suprised some Japanese are distrustful of foreigners, how would you like foreigners if they kept comming to your country and then spitting over it.
 
"On the train I happened to be standing in front of a little girl who appeared to but an upper elementary school student. She was wearing glasses but behind the glasses I could see that she was thinking hard about something. Then slowly tears started to well up in her eyes even though she was trying to push them back. Maybe somebody had said something mean to her or something, I have no idea what she was thinking about. But I wanted to take her mind of it so I said something like "what time is it?" she tried to answer in English and I praised her and said "wow, you speak English, good job" "how old are you?"
She said "11" I said I thought she looked 12. She smiled really big and said "really?"
I asked her where she lived and she said "Moto-yawata" or someing. To be honest i cant remeber exactly where she said. I then said, hey I have present for you and I opened the big bag of candy. and gave her some. She refused politely but I said "no,no you take it" she said in lovely English thank you, and smiled. She was happy."

Think about it: You are an adult male who interrogates 11 year old girls on trains while offering them "candy". If this is not asking for trouble, I'm not sure what is. At the very least, I would suggest that the girl felt very embarrased, and possibly threatened, by your uninvited behaviour. Sounds like she had no choice but to nervously feign gratitude while hoping that you would go away.

Japan is what is. Don't like it? Buy an airline ticket.
 
Serpico said:

But I want to thank Japan for giving me lots of material for my book. I dont even have to do too much research. Just living my life here is giving me tons of material which would shock most Americans into changing their buying patterns
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This is going to become a hate book more than anything, I can see it already.
Although Serpico is gone, I think it's important to remind everyone that Japan is simply a different country with different customs. Although this really can be applied to any person visiting a foreign country: you can't just rip on someone just because you don't like their customs.
The first thing that comes to my mind is my Japanese friend saying how he can't stand the clerks here at McDonalds compared to the Japanese. Does he not like it? Yes. Does he hate the people here and write a book on it because he doesn't like this aspect of America? No. Now think how much *more* tension would be created if everyone were to begin thinking like this... kashii:
 
you can't just rip on someone just because you don't like their customs.
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Unfortunately this isn't true because people all over the world do it all the time to people's, customs, and cultures everywhere.

Realistically there are always going to be people that disagree with you just because you are "different" or have a different culture. It is sad, but true.
 
living in japan

I remember when i lived in Hiroshima and got sick of hanging in foreigner bars and started to search out places "where no (foreign)man has gone before...". One night i found a dingy basement club and they had a huge group of reggae lovers and live DJ's spinnin' vinyl...all Japanese reggae mind you! very impressive it was.

Well, i was the only non-japanese there...had a good time despite being ignored as if i were a ghost...all university/college kids too...now in this kind of place and event no point in trying to meet girls 'cause they're all together with friends and will never consider risking the stigma of leaving with a white guy...or even chatting it seemed...

in this kind of place many times i ended up being spoken to by similairly out of place Japanese older guys who were quite friendly...

what's my point? well, i guess it's better to risk being ignored in a COOL bar than to hang with (mostly) white guys who are complaining (i.e. dissatisfied with jobs, isolation, marginalisation) AND competing for the far less than average girls in the place...

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with drinking and hanging out and meeting people, but it is very hard to defend oneself from the sexfiend image others may choose to project on you WHEN most of the guys around are pushing the limit to get into a girls ***. i just avoid the possibility 'cause i need people to know i'm respectable, so can't give the weak minded a chance to judge me simply by where i am or the others around me...this is extremely important and it IS a kind of impression management that i don't really care to take part in...unavoidable in most situations i'm afraid.

It's a small thing what people think...i know, but still i feel it is an effort to help others not to be judgemental or narrow minded...

when you stand out in a crowd or where ever you go, it is inevitable that you will start to care more than you might normally about the impact on others. everyone wants and deserves to be liked and accepted. personally, as a white guy, i am sad to feel the need to have to distance myself from others like me because of their selfish behavior...
actually i've got it real good here in Japan...great new HOUSE. great stereo. 3 cool cars and a Ducati...great country roads and hotsprings within minutes of home...i just got no time for messed up people who outta really head back to their respective homelands and give up their useless struggle 'cause they won't never get it straight...
 

Hell of a first post.....more power to you guy!
 
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