Remakes: Good or bad?

Mycernius · 21 May 2007

There are several thread within this sub-forum that deals with people general disgust with Hollywood remakes of Japanese films. The most recent one is about Battle Royale. Yukio Michael makes a good argument against everyone's general disgust about the matter, myself, I must admit, included, that this has been going on for years and not all one way towards Hollywood. I have a film called Kourei, Seance in English. It is a Japanese remake of a 1964 UK film called Seance on a Wet Afternoon.

Also he makes the point that a Hollywood remake would make some people go out and look for the original. How many of you first saw the remake of Ringu before looking for the original? It does help the Japanese film market in that it does generate an international interest for their film that would otherwise be left in their own domestic market.

It is not as if remakes are all bad. Whilst Yojimbo is an excellent film, how many would complain that A Fist Full of Dollars is bad. Even the next remake, Last Man Standing, isn't as bad as it could have been. Even the most recent The Departed, a remake of the Internal Affairs trilogy, was very well done.

There are bad remakes. The Dark Water remake is a terrible film, but now people do know about the original and will go out and look for it. Plus with some remakes they will get you interested in other films from Japan, Korea and China. Whilst I think the remake of Chakushin Ari will be poor, I sense it in my bones, people will check out the original and then be pulled into the strange world of Takashi Miike films.

Anyone with any other thoughts?

EmperorHirohito · 21 May 2007

In my mind some remakes of films can be a complete disaster. Some can be good, but some remakes make the originals look so much better.

One film that comes to mind is the recent remake of the Italian Job.

To me you cannot replace the likes of Micheal Caine, Noel Coward and Benny Hill. You can never repalce the classic line 'You were only meant to blow the bloody doors off' but no doubt someone will try.
Having seen both films, I hold the view that regardless who you have in the remake, you can never outshine the original film.

I think this thread could become very popular and I will be checking it every day to see what others have posted.

One last comment, the two films that I cherish are 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly' and 'Mary Poppins'. If anyone is thinking of remaking these films, I will start spitting fire lol.

leonmarino · 21 May 2007

I especially like the thought that remakes do bring attention to the original. I have to admit I had not heard of the original Ringu until the American version was in the making. I boycotted the American version and have only seen the Japanese version, though, haha.

I did some Googling about remakes, and I realized there are quite a few movies out there of which I didn't know they were remakes!! The Fly, Cape Fear and Dr Dolittle to name but a few.

I've said this in other threads, but I still think they should make a remake of 1984.. It's such a good boo,k but the movie comes nowhere near the brilliance of it!! Oh, by the way, that movie was done before, so in that sense it's already a remake!!

EmperorHirohito · 21 May 2007

leonmarino said:
I did some Googling about remakes, and I realized there are quite a few movies out there of which I didn't know they were remakes!! The Fly, Cape Fear and Dr Dolittle to name but a few.
QUOTE]

Ok lets look at two of those films quoted, The Fly and Dr Dolittle.

The original version of The Fly came out in 1958 and starred David Hedison, Patricia Owens, and a certain Vincent Price. I find that version has more suspense than the 1986 remake, you never quite know what is going to happen next. One shot that does stay in my mind is towards the end of the film and that is of the fly with the human head on it stuck in a cobweb out of doors and the camera pans in and you see the human head screaming as the spider senses theres a fly trapped on its web.
The 1986 remake starring Jeff Goldblum, Geena Davis and John Getz uses alot more special effects which does make trhe film fairly scary at times. I love the shot when the flys hair spikes start to break through his back, very good effect that can make some people cringe.

As for Dr Dolittle, I love the 1967 version starring Rex Harrison, Samantha Eggar, Antony Newley and Richard Attenborough. The film itself is almost a musical with the amount of songs in it and the storyline is one that I find makes it a good film to watch.
The 1998 remake starring Eddie Murphy and Oliver Platt and Peter Boyle is sheer comedy at its best. In this film the animals actually talk themselves and that can sometimes be hilarious, the thermometer scene with the dog early in the film is class.

Sometimes remakes can be better than the originals, but not all that often.

yukio_michael · 21 May 2007

EmperorHirohito said:
One film that comes to mind is the recent remake of the Italian Job.

Oh man, was that horrible! But you know what... Consider this really seemingly implausible big-name-actor vehicle, "Ocean's Eleven", that was a fun, enjoyable remake of what was in fact, an utterly boring, rat-pack vehicle. In that instance, I think, for entertainment, the remake trumped the original!

Not the same for say, Gone in 60 Seconds... though Hollywood had a good run of taking classical literature, (the Tale of the Shrew), Ten things I hate about you, and (Dangerous liaisons), nee Cruel intentions, and turning them into somewhat fun throw-away teen dramas...

I'll make a point here about Oldboy, a film I hold in high regard. I honestly feel that Korea is making better avant film than Japan at the moment (with the exception of Takeshi Miike, as mentioned), but that may just be my opinion... There is a remake in the making, and personally, I can't wait to see what is done with the spectacular plot of the original... I know the nuances and language of the original will be gone, but it's quite simply a fantastic story, and like all cultures, like any cultures, fantastic stories deserve to be retold.

Think of it this way--- think of the fact that oh say, The Bible, (and despite your religious beliefs, I still feel it offers a fantastic story...), is translated into so many languages... Film is a little different... there is money and commerce involved, writers and producers who gain from the mass production... (religion gains from the mass production of the Bible, but this is a rather expansive idea, so I won't elaborate on that)... but isn't a good story worthy of being re-told in a language suitable to an entirely different audience.

I think so. And though I know the motives for making these movies might not meet my same aspirations of purity... I think they function in this way regardless.

Always, for a list of current Japanese films, see

Midnight Eye - Visions of Japanese cinema - interviews, features, film reviews, book reviews, calendar of events, links and more...

The only place to be for the latest and best in Japanese cinema: interviews, features, film reviews, book reviews, calendar of events and DVD releases, links and more...

www.midnighteye.com

ed: Oh, I thought this interesting, IMDB's 100 worst films ever made: IMDb Bottom 100

EmperorHirohito · 21 May 2007

Nice list of 100 films there, are few were real flops lol.

Has anyone seen the latest version of The Wicker Man, starring Nicolas Cage. Is it any good?
Am presently watching the original with Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward.

Mycernius · 22 May 2007

EmperorHirohito said:
One film that comes to mind is the recent remake of the Italian Job.

I wouldn't have called that one a remake, more a film that justs happens to use the same name. The only similarity is they use Minis. In some ways it should have either been called the Italian Job II or a completely different name. I have a feeling the original name was used just to sell the film

EmperorHirohito said:
Has anyone seen the latest version of The Wicker Man, starring Nicolas Cage. Is it any good?
Am presently watching the original with Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward.

As far as my brother and father are concerned there is only the original film. The remake should have never have happened. Christopher Lee lists the Wicker Man as one of his favourite films that he ever worked on. I haven't seen the new one, and don't really intend to unless it happens to be on TV. It was seriously panned by the entertainment media and crictics.
I can understand why they make remakes of non-english language films. Your average english speaker doesn't want to watch a film with subtitles. Remaking it gives it a wider audience than the original would ever have. What I don't undertsnad is remaking English language films, especially when the originals were very good, The Wicker Man being an example. From what I gather having, again, not seen the re-make, The Omen is only a faithful re-production of the original, begging the question why? Why remake the Texas Chainsaw Massacre? The original is a cult classic, the remake a blood splattering hash.
Another question I would like to put forward is why are people more protective towards a favourite film than a song? There are re-recordings of hundreds of songs yet there is not the same reaction you get when a film is remade. The song Tainted love by Softcell is a re-recording of an earlier song (I admit I do not know the artist off the top of my head, but I know it didn't do very well) and has been redone by Marilyn Manson. Not much reaction really. Yet if look at the reaction when it is revealed BR is being remade. Do we somehow regard films as 'ours' rather than a song?

yukio_michael · 22 May 2007

Mycernius said:
What I don't undertsnad is remaking English language films, especially when the originals were very good, The Wicker Man being an example. From what I gather having, again, not seen the re-make, The Omen is only a faithful re-production of the original, begging the question why? Why remake the Texas Chainsaw Massacre? The original is a cult classic, the remake a blood splattering hash.

I think what is happening is that like I've mentioned with the two films above, Dangerous liaisons, & The Tale of the Shrew, and those are special examples as the stories, much like King Lear, Hamlet, etcetera, which Kurosawa based movies upon, are in of themselves based upon classic literature.

What happens, is that the progress of special effects change, the methodology of film-making changes, the audiences change, but rarely ever do the plots themselves change... much. So what happens is that you take the core plot, and most plots are very simple, "something is chasing me, and I can't get away..." Alien, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, etc, and you re-contextualize it for a newer audience who may have never seen or would bother to rent the original. It's pretty blatant laziness, but in some aspects, such as "Psycho" directed by Gus Van Sant, you get an entirely new movie, which is both engaging and unique in it's own means of production. ---I'll note though, that Van Sant's Psycho was in fact a frame-by-frame reproduction of the original.

Though I'm not a fan of these types of movies, movies such as The Dukes of Hazard target a certain demographic who might be a fan of the kitsch original, and again, you get a recontextualized version that appeals to a new audience, and an audience already familiar with the source material.

Mycernius said:
The song Tainted love by Softcell is a re-recording of an earlier song (I admit I do not know the artist off the top of my head, but I know it didn't do very well) and has been redone by Marilyn Manson.

I think people are more used to what you would call a "cover" of another song as concerns music... It's been a long standard tradition for musicians to "pay tribute" to other musicians by covering their work, the basis of the early Rolling Stones and Beatles are basically testaments to this... Hell, even Led Zeppelin basically stole the entirety of their material from original Delta Blues artists, and gave them no credit--- yet still seem to have gotten a pass from the public.

"Tainted Love" is a song composed by Ed Cobb, formerly of The Four Preps. It was originally recorded in 1964 by Gloria Jones and attained worldwide fame after being covered by Soft Cell. It has since been covered by numerous other groups.

From Wiki...

Also, noteably, Tainted Love is also famous for an extended version which includes the cover of the Supremes song, "Where did our Love go?"...

"Where Did Our Love Go" is a 1964 hit song recorded by The Supremes for the Motown label. Written and produced by Motown's main production team Holland-Dozier-Holland, "Where Did Our Love Go" was the first single by the Supremes to go to the number-one position on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart, a position it held for two weeks, from August 16 to August 29, 1964. It was also the first of five Supremes songs in a row to reach number one (the others are "Baby Love", "Come See About Me", "Stop! In the Name of Love", and "Back in My Arms Again").

again from Wiki...

Goldiegirl · 22 May 2007

The only remake I can think of is "Shall We Dance". I saw the original on A&E and loved it. I did not like the remake of it at all. I can't stand J low pants. Also the movie just didn't seem to fit in to the American way of thinking to me anyway. I know some British tv shows have crossed into the US. I believe "All in the Family" is based on a British show. Also I just read that the "Vicar of Dibley" (one of my all time fav's) maybe remade for US audiences with Kirstie Allie playing the role that Dawn French did. I think it works better perhaps, for British or European movies and tv shows to me remade because there are more things in common. Just a thought......

SushiShin · 22 May 2007

People there's even a Spiderman from Japan, but this guy wasn't a slinging hero he was just a guy, and also important the spiderman of japan wasn't a movie but a serie here's a link on YouTube:

[ Video deleted ]

it has even robots in it

made of stone · 22 May 2007

I saw Infernal Affairs last night solely due to the fact that I absolutely loved The Departed when I saw it a few months ago, (and despite its glaring flaws), so I can only say for myself that the benefits of remakes are very prominent in my thinking right now...

The plots were - of course - extremely similar. But the little differences interested me greatly, and the cinematography in both was incredible, to my mind. The violence in Scorcese's version was beautiful; poetic, in a sense, while the understatement in Internal Affairs was just as harrowing for me. The colour work in the original was just stunning.

I think the original had the better actors in the two main roles, while I enjoyed the supporting cast more in the US remake. In short, I love to compare the two, and am so very glad to have the chance to do so!!

Some more remake, off the top of my head:

King Kong (twice, and sequels of course)
Psycho
12 Angry Men
Cyrano de Bergerac (many times)
101 Damatians
Dial M for Murder (as A Perfect Murder)
Snow White (many times)
The 39 Steps (twice)
The Man Who Knew Too Much (remake directed by the director of the original, a certain A. Hitchcock)

No apologies offered by myself as to the Hitchcock-centric nature of the above list!!

Another issue is whether or not different subsequent films inspired by the same literature can be regarded as remade film versions of the first. It's a heady question, and depends largely on how much the second or third versions were inspired by the previous one, which is often open to question. Some of the above may well fit this description, but here are some that I think were different - i.e. (mostly) independent takes on the same source material:

The Lord of the Rings
Charlie/Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
1984 (with a third film adaptation in the works, apparently)

What a fascinating thread!!

yukio_michael · 22 May 2007

Herbalﾂ≫┐ said:
People there's even a Spiderman from Japan, but this guy wasn't a slinging hero he was just a guy, and also important the spiderman of japan wasn't a movie but a serie here's a link on YouTube:

Aaaaaaaaand, fixed.

Also, look at what happened to Japanese horror (or J-Horror, as lazy people call it...) for a brief stint, if you feel that Japan won't beat a dead horse until every last drop of cash has been drained from it and it's basically gone from being skeletal remains and has actually turned into some form of light crude...

Ringu (Ring) (You watch a spooky video and die in 7 days...) x 3

Juon (Grudge) (You see a creepy kid and die in some unexplainable amount of time)

Honogurai mizo no soko kara (Dark Water) (Some girl who fell down a well is haunting you.. you have to figure out how to make her stop bugging you so you can live in your apartment in peace, and this came from the people who made the ring, a well you say... hmmm...)

Jisatsu Sakaru (Suicide Circle) (You listen to crappy girl pop and eventually want to kill yourself... some sort of grand statement is being made here about something but the director never bothered to coble it into an intelligible plot-line. At the end you think to yourself, well, I have no idea why any of that just happened. I think this one get mentioned more often than it should and is especially missable...)

Shikoku (A ghost is haunting some place in Shikoku, the smallest of Japan's main Islands, some crack male/female investigative team have to figure out how to get rid of her (Chiaki Kuriyama, of Battle Royale & Kill Bill fame), before it's too late... I guess)

Kairo (aka Pulse) By famed "the-other-Kurosawa" horror director, Kiyoshi Kurosawa... (You install software on your PC that lets you watch dead people and then you commit suicide... investigation ensues into just why this is...) Not an especially bad movie, but the ending is a little confusing/implausible.

Chakushin Ari (One Missed Call) (You get a creepy ringtone on your cell phone, and die in 7 days, didn't see that one comming...) You can also miss the made-for-tv sequal especially...

The last one is even directed by Takeshi Miike, but you can forgive him when you realize that even though he can produce some stunning films, quite a few of his movies go straight to video. It's not an especially bad movie, just not that original.

You'll also notice that most of the protagonists in these movies are either female, or some sort of male/female amateur detective duo. I don't despise these movies as much as my commentary makes it seem, but I exaggerate to make a point.

Ring and Grudge were fun, not so much the English remakes (nor the Japanese sequels for that matter... I think that there is some sort of maxim in Japan that once you get a II after your movie title you can be pretty sure of getting a quick grab-for-cash knockoff of the original... see Battle Royale II), though I thought the Ring remake could have used a little more "spooky" and a lot less blood, but meh.

Dark Water is not overtly onerous until you get to the end, and then it's just a girl in a well again, and you're saying... you can't be serious, right? Oh yes, Dark Water was remade in English, but I can't imagine it being too horrible in comparison, because the original wasn't all that great or complicated to begin with.

But that's when you have to pick up movies like Sada, Kao (face), Bright Future, Survive Style Plus 5, Shimotsuma Monogatari, Casshern, heck, even Cutie Honey though cheesy was worth watching I think, if only for seeing Eriko Sato walk around in a deliciously cheesy sexy-cowboy outfit while something akin to a Japanese version of "Georgie Girl" by The Seekers plays in the background.

The problem is, there isn't a lot of originality out there period, and it gets harder and harder to write original content that doesn't at least blatantly reuse something previously done. The important part of what happens in a book or a movie isn't especially what happens, or how it happens, but why. Bad films tend to not bother to ask that last question, because they're bereft of any real answer. Just because, OKAY!? Is not the answer.

That's why its good to seek out films in different genres in any country, you might watch Grudge because you liked The Ring, but by the time you get to Dark Water, you just want to sit back and look at the cheesy eye candy that is Cutie Honey, well, at least I do.

Mycernius · 23 May 2007

yukio_michael said:
Jisatsu Sakaru (Suicide Circle) (You listen to crappy girl pop and eventually want to kill yourself...

I don't need a film to think that. It's scary because it's too close to reality (Spice Girls, et al)

EmperorHirohito · 23 May 2007

Mycernius said:
I don't need a film to think that. It's scary because it's too close to reality (Spice Girls, et al)

Brace yourself Mycernius, the Spice Girls may be reforming....... If you wanna be my lover......... lol

TheGracieHunter · 25 May 2007

As far as Japanese movies being remade are concerned I'm divided because most of them are quite poor but there are some diamonds in the rough. The ring wasnt too bad although the sequel was truly awful, the grudge wasnt bad and the sequal was average but not terrible. Battle royale looks like it could be a fun remake to be honest.

Mycernius · 26 May 2007

What a lot of people seem to forget about the sequel to The Ring is that it was an original screenplay, not a remake of Ringu 2. It seems that Hideo Nakata suffered the same problem John Woo did when making films in the US. Money does not make a good film. It seems to happen every now and then with directors, whether they are indie ones or foreign, Hollywood brings them in, throws money at them and they produce a film lacking in quality. Eventuallu some settle quiet well, or just stand their ground and make good films. Ridley Scott did it for Alien, refused to back down for what he wanted and made a damn good film.

Yukio Michael said:
I think people are more used to what you would call a "cover" of another song as concerns music...

I went into brain fade and couldn't remember the right word for re-recording anothers song. A CRAFT moment

Mycernius · 27 May 2007

I have just my copy of Empire today and Ron Zombie is doing a remake of Halloween. I shudder to think. Plus there is a write up on the new The Hitcher film. I thought the original was great. Haven't seen the new one and judging by response they have just cocked it up. Anyone seen the new one and able to give comparsions?

EmperorHirohito · 28 May 2007

If they are planning to remake the Halloween films, then either it will be a complete flop or we will go to the cinemas and come out as nervous wrecks!

Wonder what other films are planning to be remade?

Dogen Z · 3 Jun 2007

Sukiyaki Western

I don't know if this will be good or bad. I'm hoping that it will be good. It's a remake of the classic spaghetti western, Django, and Quentin Tarantino has a part in it. It'll be out late this summer. Keep your fingers crossed.
More info here: ("3w).youtube.com/watch?v=cLam3sP29VY
:samurai:

CharismaticDeath · 4 Jun 2007

Miike directing a western... It's goin to be interesting... So far all the films I've seen by him have been impressive... so I will retain high hopes for this one.

I'm not thinkin much of the voice-over on the trailer... but I suppose that doesn't really reflect on the film.

But then again it has Ando Masanobu in it... so I will just sit and fangirl out!! ^_^

EmperorHirohito · 8 Jun 2007

Any remake of a Classic film can turn out to be a real disaster!!! I will wait and see how any remake of Django turns out.

However if any one decides to remake the trilogy of spaghetti westerns starring Clint Eastwood, I will avoid them like the plague. The full restored version of 'The Good,The Bad and The Ugly' is film at its best.

Mycernius · 9 Jun 2007

I was listening to the radio this morning and the presenter mentioned that Jessica Alba had learned to play the violin in a remake of The Eye. I didn't even know they were remaking that. Needless to say the presenter was not too amused by the idea, calling Hollywood remakes as carmelised versions of the originals.

yukio_michael · 9 Jun 2007

Remakes,weather in film or music will always happen... In part, it's because the "authors" of the new film/music feel like honoring an unseen masterpiece.. Sometimes (Like with films like 10 thing I hate about you (The tale of the Shrew), Cruel Intentions (Dangerous Liasons)), it's simply using a more complicated narrative to disseminate to a different demographic... for that cash grab.

I'm a music snob, so I've heard my share of "covers", some good, some bad... In music it's mostly those paying tribute, because they loved the original so much, in movies, you get half & half... Hostel was inspired by the Miike Movie Audition.... though I can't fathom how... torture is the only link.

It really doesn't matter to you or me, or anyone, when someone remakes a film, song, or whathaveyou... The copy will either be an interesting re-interpretation, (many of Kurosawa's works were re-interpretations of classical literature), or just fail, on the own wriiter/directors ability to incorporate the "why" into the film... Why is it happening, not WHAT or HOW... those things are easy, but WHY is the hardest part.

When Battle Royale comes out, I'll probably see it, as a lark, but it wont ever ruin the original for me. And I'll know, Battle Royale II, ISN'T that good of a move to begin with... so a copy of a copy of a copy... how good can that be?

We need not obsess with these things... it just happens...

EmperorHirohito · 10 Jun 2007

If any remake of Battle Royale comes out, I may go and see it, just to see if Hollywood do ruin a good film, I reckon my daughter wont go and see it as she likes the original too much, it was played on her dvd player every night for weeks on end.

Reckon it will be 2008 before any remake arrives at any cinema.

Dogen Z · 9 Jul 2007

Kill Bill/Shura Yuki Hime

I just found out this weekend that Kill Bill, v1, was a remake of Shura Yuki Hime. IMO, Kill Bill is great and Shura Yuki Hime is well worth watching if you liked Kill Bill.

*spoiler* (But the main character dies at the end after getting her revenge)

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