Pronouncing renrakusaki?

himeji · 4 Oct 2008

I can't quite decide if what I'm hearing this being pronounced as is:
/L/en/L/akusaki
or:
/D/en/D/akusaki
it sounds different with different people, some sound LEN some DEN; or so it seems. It could be just normal variation in speech?
From the limited amount I've learnt (much of which is confusingly contradictory but will probably fall into place some day) I'd expect it to be LEN, but it that correct?
(Sorry if this is too basic for here).

undrentide · 4 Oct 2008

I cannot think of any words/phrases that may sound like "renrakusai".
Japanese "R" sound is close to "D" (there's no "L" sound in Japanese language), still "dendakusai" does not make any sense.

In what context you've heard the sentence?
I wonder if it could be either
"renraku kudasai" (please contact me) or
"denwa kudasai" (please give me a ring)?

Oops, I seem to have misread the original post?!
Renrakusaki = 連絡先 (Contact address/phone number, etc.)

Anyway, as far as pronunciation is concerned, I agree with Glenn.

himeji · 5 Oct 2008

I cannot think of any words/phrases that may sound like "renrakusai"

Perhaps the 'k' makes a big difference?
The full phrase is: renrakusaki wo oshiete kuremassen ka?
It's supposedly the, polite, standard phrase for asking some one for their contact address? (with their name + san, kun, chan samma etc whichever seems appropriate in front).

there's no "L" sound in Japanese language

Er... ra, ri, ru, re, ro is pronounced as la, li, lu, le, lo? Or so everything I've learned up to now would suggest... hence my impression that ren... and rak... were likely to be pronounced len... and lak... but often sounded like den... and dak...
Confused as ever.

becki_kanou · 5 Oct 2008

らりるれろ is not pronounced as L, D, or R, but as something in between, although it's closer to L than R.

The English L is pronounced with the back of the tongue touching the teeth, while the English D is pronounced with the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. The Japanese らりるれろ are pronounced with the tongue touching slightly further back on the roof of the mouth than the English D.

grapefruit · 5 Oct 2008

becki_kanou said:
らりるれろ is not pronounced as L, D, or R, but as something in between, although it's closer to L than R.

The English L is pronounced with the back of the tongue touching the teeth, while the English D is pronounced with the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. The Japanese らりるれろ are pronounced with the tongue touching slightly further back on the roof of the mouth than the English D.

A good example is the American English pronunciation of "-dd-" in "ladder."

himeji · 5 Oct 2008

The English L is pronounced with the back of the tongue touching the teeth, ...

I seem to be pronouncing らりるれろ with my tongue almost exactly touching the same position in the top of my mouth as I would pronouncing the English 'D'.
So, the differences I'm hearing between real Japanese people pronouncing 'renrakusaki' (len/den) are likely due to their personal tongue positions (so to speak) which is just local accent/dialect etc?
So as long as I pronounce around len/den I'll be ok; I don't want to sound either posh or common

)) Osaka Japanese is different from Tokyo Japanese after all.
Just wondered, that's all.

becki_kanou · 5 Oct 2008

I'm not sure it's a difference in local dialect.
Most Japanese dialects tend to differ in intonation and word choice rather than pronunciation like English dialects do. Although there are some things that are pronounced differently in different regions (Tokyoites are famously unable to say し correctly) most of the difference lies in pitch intonation and vocabulary.

I'd very interested to hear what any native speakers have to say about this, though.

Glenn · 5 Oct 2008

Technically it's a tap or flap. To be more precise it's an alveolar lateral flap, which means it's something like a cross between the "t"s in "butter" (in most American dialects that I'm aware of, anyway) or the "d"s in "ladder" (as suggested by grapefruit) and an "l."

To break down the terminology, "alveolar" means that the sound is produced on the alveolar ridge, which is that lump of gums behind your top front teeth. It's the part before the palate. "Lateral" means that air passes on both sides of the tongue, like the English "l." "Flap" seems pretty self-explanatory: your tongue flaps, making quick contact and only once (unlike a trill, which makes contact multiple times). Also, the tip of the tongue is the part that makes contact.

So, it's neither "d" nor "l," as was pointed out by undrentide.

himeji · 5 Oct 2008

So, it's neither "d" nor "l," as was pointed out by undrentide.

And that is how I'm (and always have) been hearing it.
As ever, I've been slightly mislead by the examples and various bits of learning materials I have but your explanation is greatly appreciated and I can move forward with an improved understanding.
Thanks.

Pronouncing renrakusaki?

himeji

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

himeji

先輩

becki_kanou

Sumo Freak

grapefruit

先輩

himeji

先輩

becki_kanou

Sumo Freak

Glenn

一切皆苦

himeji

先輩

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