Particles, lists and さん

Wonderland · 7 Nov 2004

Do words ever have more than one particle after them or is there always a specific one for the job?

If I was giving a list of items in a restaurant for instance would I use

Cake をと Lemon tea をと soba おください。

I wondered because cake and lemon tea are objects.

Or as I think more likely is it -

Cake と Lemon tea と soba おください。

Or is it neither.

I would also like confirmation that you always use さん after a name even if it is written in Katakana. I'm pretty sure it is but I've seen it written in Katakana somewhere and now theres a doubt in my mind.

Many thanks as always, someday I'll be good enough to answer someone elses questions.

Glenn · 8 Nov 2004

Wonderland said:
Do words ever have more than one particle after them or is there always a specific one for the job?

If I was giving a list of items in a restaurant for instance would I use

Cake をと Lemon tea をと soba おください。

I wondered because cake and lemon tea are objects.

Or as I think more likely is it -

Cake と Lemon tea と soba おください。

Or is it neither.

The second one is right, with the exception of using お before ください when it should be を. I don't know why you got it right earlier, and then got it wrong before ください.

Wonderland said:
I would also like confirmation that you always use さん after a name even if it is written in Katakana. I'm pretty sure it is but I've seen it written in Katakana somewhere and now theres a doubt in my mind.

Yes, and you could even put it after people's names in romaji. Don't worry about saying things like スミスさん just because the name isn't Japanese. The Japanese say things like that all the time.

Elizabeth · 10 Nov 2004

Glenn said:
The second one is right, with the exception of using お before ください when it should be を. I don't know why you got it right earlier, and then got it wrong before ください.

You don't need the polite 'o' before kudasai after を if that was the intent of おください in the first example。

BrennaCeDria · 10 Nov 2004

Okay, an example of how I understand Japanese grammar, using my English grammar: (I know Japanese grammar is so, so much different from English but this seems to still be true, from what I've seen.)

Any part of a sentence can be singular or plural--subject, object, or verb--and be a compound. Your list of items you used in the example is a compound object, so you save the "o" (sorry, don't have kana turned on right now on my comp--they've already said which "o" to use) until the end to apply it to everything that you've included in your list with "to." I'm still working on my verbs, so I'm not sure if compound verbs can be done in Japanese, but I believe this does also work with subjects/topics (my penpal has used compound subjects before when speaking to me or making examples in Japanese).

Mike Cash · 10 Nov 2004

Wonderland said:
Do words ever have more than one particle after them or is there always a specific one for the job?

There are times when there are a couple of particles appearing together, because the two together are the specific ones for that particular job.

田中先生に本をあげた。山内先生にも本をあげた。

See?

PaulTB · 11 Nov 2004

mikecash said:
There are times when there are a couple of particles appearing together, because the two together are the specific ones for that particular job.

My favourite set for illustrating this point are

先生の手紙 sensei no tegami
先生への手紙 sensei e no tegami
先生からの手紙 sensei kara no tegami

(Hopefully I haven't misremembered and typed something stupid ...)

Glenn · 12 Nov 2004

Nope, those all look fine to me.

Also, there are the ni tsuite, ni tsure(te), ni mo kakawarazu, etc. that are compound particles and have functions not necessarily discernable from their parts.

MtoM · 16 Nov 2004

Cake をと Lemon tea をと soba おください。
well, I think "Cake wo (#+counter) to lemon tea wo (#+counter)to soba wo (#+counter) o-kudasai" is good, isn't it?
but what is the counter for cake, lemon tea(hai?) and soba ?

CorDarei · 17 Nov 2004

MtoM said:
Cake をと Lemon tea をと soba おください。
well, I think "Cake wo (#+counter) to lemon tea wo (#+counter)to soba wo (#+counter) o-kudasai" is good, isn't it?
but what is the counter for cake, lemon tea(hai?) and soba ?

ケーキはやっぱ１個・二個ってとこかな。お茶なら「杯」で，そばは一つ・二つ。

I like your example. I think it would be more natural to leave out the "wo" particle before the counters though (I don't think it's grammatically necessary to take it out, so feel free to leave it in there), and it should be just "kudasai" instead of "o-kudasai". And just in case someone can't read my first sentence, I said I would use the "ko" counter for pieces of cake, "hai" for cups of lemon tea, and "hitotsu, futatsu" etc. for orders of soba.

Side note peripherally related to counters: One of my favorite songs by Strawberry Jam is called "Ippon demo Ninjin" and in it they use different objects (and the associated counter) to count up to ten. It makes me laugh every time I hear it. It also has a pretty good guitar riff. Anyway. </end pointless fringe pop culture reference>

TwistedMac · 17 Nov 2004

CorDarei said:
Side note peripherally related to counters: One of my favorite songs by Strawberry Jam is called "Ippon demo Ninjin" and in it they use different objects (and the associated counter) to count up to ten. It makes me laugh every time I hear it. It also has a pretty good guitar riff. Anyway. </end pointless fringe pop culture reference>

oooh, sounds like a good song to learn what counter goes where O_O

if it's some sort of joke song with the counters for the wrong objects for a laugh or something like that, please do tell before I learn it all wrong >_<

CorDarei · 18 Nov 2004

TwistedMac said:
oooh, sounds like a good song to learn what counter goes where O_O

if it's some sort of joke song with the counters for the wrong objects for a laugh or something like that, please do tell before I learn it all wrong >_<

Heh, no, it uses the right counters as far as I can tell. (Although I don't know about the one for yacht) On the other hand, they use the same ten objects in every verse; it's not really meant to be an educational song or anything, it's just funny.

TwistedMac · 18 Nov 2004

still.. that's ten counters i need to learn anyway, if i can hum on a song to recall them, all the better.

MtoM · 18 Nov 2004

I found the song!!!
========
"Ippon demo ninjin",
『一本でもニンジン』

1本でもニンジン
ippon demo ninjin (if there is one carot, we say Ninjin)
Note: We count pencil-type goods as ippon-nihon-sanbon-yonhon-gohon-
roppon-nanahon-hachihon-kyuuhon-joppon

２足でもサンダル
nisoku demo sandaru (if there are two pairs of sandals, we say Sandaru)
Note: We count shoes as issoku-nisoku-sanzoku-yonsoku-gosoku-rokusoku-
nanasoku-hassoku-kyuusoku-jyussoku

３艘でもヨット
sansou demo yotto (if there are three yacht, we say Yotto)
Note: We count ships as issou-nisou-sansou-yonsou-gosou-rokusou-nanasou-
hassou-kyuusou-jyussou

４粒でもゴマ塩
yotsubu demo gomashio (if there are four sesame, we say Gomashio)
Note: We count grains as hitotsubu-futatsubu-mitsubu-yotsubu-gotsubu-
rokutsubu-nanatsubu-hachitsubu-kyuutsubu-jyuttsubu

5台でもロケット
godai demo rokketto (if there are five rocket, we say Roketto)
Note: We count large vehicles as ichidai-nidai-sandai-yondai-godai-
rokudai-nanadai-hachidai-kyuudai-jyuudai.

6羽でも七面鳥
rokuwa demo shichimenchou (if there are six turkeys, we say
Shichimenchou)
Note: We count birds as ichiwa-niwa-sanwa-yonwa-gowa-rokuwa-nanawa-
hachiwa-kyuuwa-jyuuwa.

7匹でも蜂
nanahiki demo hachi (if there are seven bees, we say Hachi.)
Note: We count insects as ippiki-nihiki-sanbiki-yonhiki-gohiki-roppiki-
nanahiki-happiki-kyuuhiki-jyuppiki

8頭でもクジラ
hattou demo kujira (if there are nine whales, we say Kujira.)
Note: We count animals as ittou-nitou-santou-yontou-gotou-rokutou-
nanatou-hachitou-kyuutou-jyuttou.

9杯でもジュース
kyuuhai demo juusu (if there are nine cups, we say Juice.)
Note: We count cups of drinks as ippai-nihai-sanbai-yonhai-gohai-roppai-
nanahai-hachihai-kyuuhai-jyuppai.

10個でもイチゴ
jyukko demo ichigo (if there are ten strawberrys, we say Ichigo.)
Note: We count small goods as ikko-niko-sanko-yonko-goko-rokko-nanako-
hakko-kyuuko-jyukko.
=================================

皆！覚えておきましょう！！

Study counting using acrobat reader:

countingitems.pdf

or download it then print it

Thanks for the one who made this wonderful site!

Anyway, If you can find a sound file for this song, we are done with memorizing it!

PaulTB · 18 Nov 2004

MtoM said:
I found the song!!!
========
"Ippon demo ninjin",
『一本でもニンジン』
[...]

San nin demo bonkura~zu
三人でもぼんくら～ず

Bonus points if you know the reference.

MtoM · 18 Nov 2004

LESSON 52-53
HShinkai: Radical Japanese Lessons 2

CorDarei · 19 Nov 2004

PaulTB said:
San nin demo bonkura~zu
三人でもぼんくら～ず

Bonus points if you know the reference.

あずまんが大王でしょう？
久しぶりに思い出したアニメだな．．．って、オヤジくさい！

Fantt · 19 Nov 2004

MtoM: Tell me about those einstein lessons, please. Are they generally useful? They seem to be in an odd format.

MtoM · 19 Nov 2004

to tell the truth I didn't try any of them-but I'll as soon as my time allow- I just found this site today after seaching in google the word "Ippon demo ninjin"

Fantt · 19 Nov 2004

I love the internets.

CorDarei · 19 Nov 2004

I just looked at (scanned over, really) those lessons. They seem... interesting. It might be good to read through to get a feel for how you use different constructions in Japanese, although the English translations are a bit non-native-speakerish.

Also, I have the Strawberry Jam version of the song; if someone wants to hear it I could put up a sound sample on my webspace (I wouldn't want to lead anyone down the slippery slope of copyright infringement )

[Edit]いい忘れたけど、MtoMさん、ご苦労様でした！

TwistedMac · 19 Nov 2004

CorDarei said:
あずまんが大王

<3

<3 <3 <3

Fantt · 19 Nov 2004

CorDarei said:
Also, I have the Strawberry Jam version of the song; if someone wants to hear it I could put up a sound sample on my webspace (I wouldn't want to lead anyone down the slippery slope of copyright infringement )

That would be awesome. You can PM us with the link if you'd rather keep it mostly private.

TwistedMac · 19 Nov 2004

Fantt said:
That would be awesome. You can PM us with the link if you'd rather keep it mostly private.

*points at own pm inbox*
nudge nudge!
wink wink!
say no more! say no more!

CorDarei · 19 Nov 2004

はい、お待ち！

Here you go, the clip is embedded in a webpage on my university webspace. The bandwidth should be good enough to serve a 500KB mp3 fairly well. Have fun!

Ippon Demo Ninjin

MtoM · 19 Nov 2004

I didn't find any mp3 file in the link!

Particles, lists and さん

先輩

一切皆苦

先輩

Lovely Angel

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Manga Psychic

一切皆苦

先輩

ロマンチスト

後輩

ロマンチスト

後輩

先輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

ロマンチスト

Envious of Nabeshin's Fro

先輩

Envious of Nabeshin's Fro

ロマンチスト

後輩

Envious of Nabeshin's Fro

後輩

ロマンチスト

先輩

Similar threads