Ooi or ooku? Which is used when?

Sming · 18 Sep 2014

I'm probably going to have so many questions like this throughout my studies - when is 'this' used and when is 'that' used, sort of thing. But I'll start with this one, hopefully someone can help!

When is 多い used and when is 多く used? And which might use the の particle after it?

Also, which would be correct in the following case:

多く言葉を知っています。
多い言葉を知っています。

(And yet another bonus question, would I be better to use 知る ?)

Thank you in advance!

FinancialWar · 18 Sep 2014

多い is adjective and 多く is a noun. Other than that, I'm confused too.

Mike Cash · 18 Sep 2014

Aren't you the same guy who wanted us to recommend Japanese novels for him to read?

Kraise · 18 Sep 2014

多くの言葉 (たくさん) fits better or 知っている言葉が多い might also happen

In my limited knowledge, 多い acts as an adjective, restricted to modifying a noun but always (I think) limited to coming after its subject, as in ここは人が多い/雪が多い, if you wish to place it before its subject, 多くの , seems to be the way to go.

多く is his adverb shape, it can also modify a whole clause as in

いわゆる「大きいな政府」の支持者が不満を表明する現象の多くは。。。。

here it means "the most part/a large ammount " as in 大部分(だいぶぶん）

FinancialWar · 18 Sep 2014

which guy?

Sming · 18 Sep 2014

Mike Cash said:
Aren't you the same guy who wanted us to recommend Japanese novels for him to read?

No, I'm the guy who wanted recommendations for Japanese novels to work towards. And this is me here - working towards it, with the help of lovely friendly folks such as yourself.

Kraise said:
多くの言葉 (たくさん) fits better or 知っている言葉が多い might also happen

In my limited knowledge, 多い acts as an adjective, restricted to modifying a noun but always (I think) limited to coming after its subject, as in ここは人が多い/雪が多い, if you wish to place it before its subject, 多くの , seems to be the way to go.

多く is his adverb shape, it can also modify a whole clause as in

いわゆる「大きいな政府」の支持者が不満を表明する現象の多くは。。。。

here it means "the most part/a large ammount " as in 大部分(だいぶぶん）

Thank you - very helpful! Is that somewhat a rule for adjective-の before the noun? Obviously only with certain adjectives but I've noticed some do follow that pattern?

Kraise · 18 Sep 2014

No, this rule isnt the same for every adjective,

you can say 厚い本、or 寒い日 or 硬い言葉. no need for this くの modified shape in these (and probably most of the い-adjectives too)

a word that you might want to get used to is 沢山（たくさん） , it can mean that good old "lots of" we use in english

I can't offer a more technical response without checking my material first, but I believe there wasnt any major mistake to my explanation

Mike Cash · 18 Sep 2014

I know you're already several months in, but if it wouldn't be too terribly impertinent I would like to suggest you find room in your study plan for a proper beginner's textbook. Genki and it's associated workbook might be a good choice.

Toritoribe · 18 Sep 2014

Sming said:
Is that somewhat a rule for adjective-窶堙 before the noun? Obviously only with certain adjectives but I've noticed some do follow that pattern?

遅くまで

Morphling · 18 Sep 2014

多く is a separate word that is both an adjective and noun. Although it comes from 連用形 of 多い it is essentially a different word.

多くの人 would be correct since 多く is used as a noun. 多くあります is also okay since 多く here is in its adverb mode.

I would treat this as a one off. You can't use the te form of adjectives and turn them into a noun plus adverb. Doesn't work like that. This is a very special exception that basically deserved its own dictionary entry.

Toritoribe · 19 Sep 2014

多く is indeed special, since the original adjective 多い is not a spatial or temporal adjective, unlike other i-adjective-origin nouns such like 遠く, 近く, 早く, 遅く, 古く,(or the -ku forms 高く and 深く in specific usages), as I wrote in the thread I linked above. These words are also in the dictionary. There are these some exceptions, not only one exception, so there might be some reasons that the -ku form of i-adjectives works as a noun, I suppose.

BondEternal · 22 Sep 2014

多い cannot be used as a prefix to modify nouns like other i-adjectives can (e.g. 遠いところ、暑い天気、つまらない授業）. This is the same with 少ない. You cannot say 多い人 or 少ないレストラン. This is because both 多い and 少ない also carry the meaning of ある (to exist, inanimate objects) and いる (to exist, animate objects). Check the examples below:

東京にレストランがたくさんある。 In Tokyo, there are many restaurants.
東京にフェストランが多い。 In Tokyo, there are many restaurants.

Likewise for 少ない...

田舎にレストランがあまりない。 In the countryside, there are few restaurants.
田舎にレストランが少ない。 In the countryside, there are few restaurants.

The example below is grammatically wrong:

東京に多いレストランがある。

However, you CAN say the following:

東京に多くのレストランがある。

If you plan to use 多く as a prefix to modify a noun, you must add の.

To answer your question above, both sentences you provided are incorrect. You can say it in these ways:

多くの言葉を知っている。
知っている言葉が多い。

Sidenote: 知る and わかる are both acceptable in this situation. But when you use わかる, you have to use the が particle instead of を. Also, you don't need to use ~ている form when using わかる.

Finally, the sentence below is still grammatically correct:

レストランが多いところに行ったことがある。I have been to a place with many restaurants.

This is because 多い is NOT modifying ところ, it's the modifier for the subordinate clause (レストランが多い）

Mike Cash · 22 Sep 2014

Bond, would you explain 少ない予算 for me, please?

BondEternal · 22 Sep 2014

Mike Cash said:
Bond, would you explain 少ない予算 for me, please?

Did you want to say low budget or insufficient budget?

Low budget 低予算
Insufficient budget 足りない予算

Mike Cash · 22 Sep 2014

BondEternal said:
Did you want to say low budget or insufficient budget?

Low budget 低予算
Insufficient budget 足りない予算

No, I wanted you to explain to me why 少ない is used to modify a noun there, please.

BondEternal · 22 Sep 2014

Mike Cash said:
No, I wanted you to explain to me why 少ない is used to modify a noun there, please.

Because you wrote it that way? Or it could be an exception I never heard of.

Mike Cash · 22 Sep 2014

BondEternal said:
Because you wrote it that way? Or it could be an exception I never heard of.

The latter.

BondEternal · 22 Sep 2014

Thanks for pointing that out, Mike.

Mike Cash · 22 Sep 2014

BondEternal said:
Thanks for pointing that out, Mike.

You're quite welcome.

I wasn't aware of the nature of the words as you mentioned in your post and I thought perhaps you might have something on the exception as well.

Toritoribe · 22 Sep 2014

Unlike 多く, 少なく can't be used as a noun, as I pointed out previously. (Instead, 少し can be used in most cases.) That would be the main reason why 少ない is sometimes valid as an attributive.

○復興に多くの予算が割かれた。
✕復興に多い予算が割かれた。

○少ない予算でやりくりした。
✕少なくの予算でやりくりした。
○少しの予算でやりくりした。

多い also can work as an attributive in specific cases, for instance with adverbs.
e.g.
非常に多い数の生徒が合格した。（＝非常に多くの生徒が合格した。）

As in the example above, or even in 東京にはレストランが多い/田舎にはレストランが少ない, I don't think 多い/少ない contains "to exist". It just expresses "the number (of the students/restaurants) is many/(a) few". (Yes, 東京にはレストランがたくさんある has the same meaning as 東京にはレストランが多い, but 東京はレストランの数が多い is also the same in meaning. These are just different expressions.)

Sming · 22 Sep 2014

Wow, that was very in-depth, Bond. Thank you very much!

Toritoribe · 22 Sep 2014

多い言葉を知っています is incorrect, but 多く言葉を知っています is valid. In this case, 多く is interpreted as an adverb (as same as 言葉を多く知っています), not an attributive that modifies 言葉.

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