okake ni narimasen ka

dwcarless · 1 Nov 2009

In Pimsleur today I just heard the phrase okake ni narimasen ka and it is supposed to mean "won't you have a seat? or "won't you sit down?"

But I don't understand it.

I know:
掛けてください means "please sit" (te + kudasai), and
お掛けください would be even more polite (o + stem/base 2 + kudasai)
and that "in order to" is (stem/base 2 + ni)

But I can't figure out what お掛けに is all about. It is like some odd mixture of all of the above.

Also how does narimasen fit in? I assume it is polite negative of 成る (生る and 鳴る would make even less sense), but how would that fit into this sentence? To become?

I'm so lost. Thanks in advance for anything that helps!

Toritoribe · 1 Nov 2009

お掛けになる is an honorific of 掛ける as same as "お出[い]でになる <--> 来る", "お休みになる <--> 寝る". The pre-masu form of verbs, お掛け, お出で, お休み, acts as a noun in this usage. (に is a particle, of course.) And yes, なる is 成る/為る or "to become", thus, お掛けになる roughly means "to become a state of sitting."

Generally, ～ませんか sounds more polite/soft than ～て下さい.

dwcarless · 1 Nov 2009

"お出でになる <--> 来る"

Sorry, but now I'm confused even more.
I thought that the honorific for 来る was いらっしゃる?

Toritoribe · 1 Nov 2009

Yeah, I should choose more appropriate examples.

食べる <--> お食べになる
選ぶ <--> お選びになる

Verbs have severeal forms for honorific, as in "食べる <--> 食べられる, お食べになる, 召し上がる". "お/ご + pre-masu form of verb + になる" is one of common ways to make a verb honorific.

Refer to the page 24 for detailed information.
http://www.bunka.go.jp/1kokugo/pdf/keigo_tousin.pdf (all in japanese)

dwcarless · 1 Nov 2009

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, I should choose more appropriate examples.
食べる <--> お食べになる
選ぶ <--> お選びになる
Verbs have severeal forms for honorific, as in "食べる <--> 食べられる, お食べになる, 召し上がる". "お/ご + pre-masu form of verb + になる" is one of common ways to make a verb honorific.

Ok thank you , I think I have it now, kind of
お+(stem/base2)+になる is honorific (keigo).
掛けてください (polite, neutral, request)
お掛けください (very polite, neutral, request)
お掛けになってください (very polite, respectful, request)
お掛けになりませんか (very polite, respectful, invitation)
So I can use this for most verbs?
Also I see you mention "食べる <--> 食べられる", but I thought られる was the potential form (eat vs can eat)? Is this similar to English then, like "can you go out tonight" vs "will you go out tonight'?
Thanks!

Chidoriashi · 1 Nov 2009

Honestly if I were you I would not rack my brain so much with keigo right now. I assume you are at an intermediate level? Once you are ready to start giving speeches and formal addresses then I would say it is time to practice using all of those properly. You should be aware of the forms of course but for most conversations I would just stick to using plain forms and masu forms.

dwcarless · 1 Nov 2009

Chidoriashi said:
Honestly if I were you I would not rack my brain so much with keigo right now. I assume you are at an intermediate level? Once you are ready to start giving speeches and formal addresses then I would say it is time to practice using all of those properly. You should be aware of the forms of course but for most conversations I would just stick to using plain forms and masu forms.

I wish

But it is in my current lesson, and my lessons are comprehensive -- so I will be seeing this form again, and probably quite soon. I could just memorize the phrase as-is without understanding it, or I could just ignore it, but in either case it will hit me twice as hard the next time I see it. So I'd rather wrestle with it now and be ready for it again when I see it next. And it is part of my corporate training, so this is for business and not for pleasure, so I am hitting keigo a lot earlier than normal.

Toritoribe · 1 Nov 2009

dwcarless said:
お+(stem/base2)+になる is honorific (keigo).
掛けてください (polite, neutral, request)
お掛けください (very polite, neutral, request)
お掛けになってください (very polite, respectful, request)
お掛けになりませんか (very polite, respectful, invitation)
So I can use this for most verbs?

As for the honorific form "お + pre-masu form of Japanese origin verbs + になる", "ご + stem of Chinese origin -suru verbs + になる", mostly yes. It can be used for most verbs. But there are some exceptions.

1)verbs of one mora pre-masu form(ichidan verbs and irregular verbs)
いる, 着る, 煮る, 見る, 来る, 得る, 寝る, 経る,,,

2)loan words, mimetic words
プレーする, セットする, どきどきする,,,

3)some Chinese origin -suru verbs
運転する, 勝負する,,,

Further, those four structures do not always work well. Some could sound weird depending on the types of verbs or context.

dwcarless said:
Also I see you mention "食べる <--> 食べられる", but I thought られる was the potential form (eat vs can eat)? Is this similar to English then, like "can you go out tonight" vs "will you go out tonight'?
Thanks!

Ah, no, not the potential but the passive form. They are the same in ichidan verbs, though.
e.g.
食べる(ichidan) <--> 食べられる(potential/passive/honorific)
書く(godan) <--> 書かれる(passive/honorific), 書ける(potential)

dwcarless · 1 Nov 2009

Awesome -- that explains it and ties up all the loose ends. Thank you so much for your time and your answers

okake ni narimasen ka

dwcarless

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

dwcarless

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

dwcarless

先輩

Chidoriashi

In imagination land

dwcarless

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

dwcarless

先輩

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