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Native American...Asian or not?

Why not just ASK US NATIVES what we think and what we KNOW about the subject

Because Native Americans are not necessarily all scientist and researchers?
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So basing off what you just said all races on this earth doesn't know about their own story and culture because not everyone is a scientist?
Are you saying that Native Americans are dumb? That they have no clue about their very own existence?
My elders would tell you different

Because it's very hurtful to put a title on someone....

Or maybe you are just too sensitive? Why in the world would you care so much are labeled as Asian?
What is the difference?
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Me? And only me?? I said before I spoke with my Native American family and all of them agreed that we didnt decend from Asia
have you ever asked a Native American before of what they think? No of course you wouldn't and many people don't and that's apart of the problem
It's not an issue when it comes to being labeled Asian it's an issue if you dont take into consideration of what the actual people you are talking about have to say for themselves so yes of course I'm going to say something because this is about my people after all

SO does that make Irish descendants of Germans because they look similar? NO...

NOT descendants but they are highly related..
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Yes You are right but I wasn't claiming anything I was only using Caucasians for an example when comes to appearance I also used East Inidans having dark skin just like Native Americans I was simply using this as an example that you cannot "judge a book by its cover"

I understand completely of what you're trying to say and you're right it's definitely not a big deal but I don't think things should just be stated without having a debate about the issue I really don't care if people are categorizing I just want the truth to be told because it seems everyone knows something about my people that my own people don't know about themselves and that's what really gets me because then anyone could say anything about Native Americans and others would believe it
 
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3. PANGEA "the mother land
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Sorry I should have been more clear about what I thought on PANGEA
Honestly this was alllll guessing on my part I was just trying to come up with another theory from the top of my head but I'll tell you why I figured this
yes you are right there were no races back then
But I believe there were huminids "human like beings" around that era and that's what I was going off of but at the same time
I could very well be wrong like I said I'm only guessing

But no it's not frustrating at all please don't get me wrong all I'm doing is giving you a Natives perspective on the subject
If you're right and I'm wrong then so be it
But as I said I would rather debate on it than just accept what I'm being told
So no hard feelings guys!!
 
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TheCanuck
My ancestors are descended from a little cavern on Mars
They told me so, so it must be true. I'm perfectly sure they know what happened thousands of years before writing existed.
AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANY DIFFERENT OR PROVE OTHERWISE BECUZZZ I R A MARTIAN AND I SAYS SO LOLZ *sticks finger in ears*

Do you not see how retarded that way of reasoning is? It can't even be called 'reasoning'
 
This post was the same as the last I just don't know how to delete this lol XD
 
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Are you comparing you're "Martian" example that of the Native Americans?
Cause if so then you have a lot of things wrong on it
My people have our own language and our own writing "syllabics" is what they're called and teachings through both of these
So what's your point here that we are intentionally lying to our younger generations for years and years? Please if you're gonna be a child about the situation don't bother trying to prove your immature point
 
Hi everyone I'll try and get to all your questions here shortly It's been a busy day
but first I would like to show you another Native Americans perspective on the issue
please remember these are not my words and that i'll try and get back to your questions soon

""All evidence indicates that both North and South America were inhabited 50,000+ years ago. Some archaeologists maintain that humans inhabited the Americas over 100,000 years ago, The evidence found has been geofactual and not cultural.

Neither Asians nor Europeans existed at the time Native Americans were living in the Americas. The mongoloid characteristics did not even exist in Asian until 7,000 years ago. So any mongoloid characteristics people THINK they see in Native Americans did not come from Asia. No matter where people say Native Americans came from, all evidence proves it false.

First Americans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff2g-G0ogﾂ…

This data shows a ﾂ"World Population Relationship Treeﾂ". You will see that Native Americans are placed on a totally separate branch from all other populations. (pg 2)

The Arctic Connection: Alaska to Siberia
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digesﾂ…

Virtually without exception the new evidence supports the SINGLE ancestral population theory. Native Americans are more closely related to each other than to any other existing Asian population.

A unique variant (an allele) of a genetic marker in the DNA of modern-day Native Americans, dubbed the "9-repeat allele," the variant occurred in all of the 41 populations that they sampled from Alaska to the southern tip of Chile. Furthermore, the allele was ABSENT in other ASIAN populations

2009: Native Americans descended from a single ancestral group
http://www.physorg.com/news160214945.htmﾂ…

Pedra Furada in the North-East of the Brésil probably represents the oldest archaeologic human site known in America. A total of seven charcoal samples coming from various hearths were subjected to analysis. The samples proved to be old beyond the limit of 48,000 years, indicating ages of 55,000 with 60,000 years.

2003: Padre Furada (Brazil)
http://www.speedylook.com/Pedra_Furada.hﾂ…
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/storiﾂ…
2004: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200ﾂ…
2008: Humans walked America 40,000 years ago
http://www.itwire.com/index2.php?option=ﾂ…

Native Americans are their own race.

Native Americans are the largest homogenous race on earth.""
 
Woops sorry glenski didn't see your post till now
I will go and collect the links I have this info based off of but first I'll address some of your statements

(not entirely theory)
Just like its "nearly impossible" for an arrival time either way that doesn't make a claim on anything cause it's still theory there is no solid evidence so I won't be taking that as an answer
As for the appearance I was mostly addressing the people who do use this example not saying its what scientists are using more over just regular people trying to piece things together...
And when I say ask us Natives I'm talking about not just me but EVERYBODY like our elders who've been taught and know more than I do
So don't just ask one person please..
And as for my sources I'll post them here as soon as I get back
 
TheCanuck said:
Sorry I should have been more clear about what I thought on PANGEA
Honestly this was alllll guessing on my part I was just trying to come up with another theory from the top of my head
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I hope you realize how dangerous that is, especially since you have already boasted that you and other NAmericans know where you came from. Don't weaken your case with contradictions and wild speculation.

but I'll tell you why I figured this
yes you are right there were no races back then
But I believe there were huminids "human like beings" around that era
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Please do yourself a favor and educate yourself on some extremely basic principles.

1. Earliest hominid fossil evidence shows Man was around as a hominid in Chad about 7 million years ago.
New material of the earliest hominid from the Upper Miocene of Chad : Abstract : Nature
Cosmogenic nuclide dating of Sahelanthropus tchadensis and Australopithecus bahrelghazali: Mio-Pliocene hominids from Chad

2. Pangaea broke up roughly 100 million to 200 million years ago. Kind of a big difference there. Kiss your "theory" bye-bye.
My people have our own language and our own writing "syllabics"
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Cree, right? Actually, the Cree language is a subset of the Algonquian language family, which means it is not an isolated (your own) language. Moreover, Cree were known for inter-tribal marriage, so kiss any homogeneity bye-bye, there, too.

LOL and also trust me as a Native American I'm no christian
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Are you really that ignorant of history? Many NAmericans were Christians, thanks to missionaries.
 
So basing off what you just said all races on this earth doesn't know about their own story and culture because not everyone is a scientist?
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How did culture and story come into this??? I thought we were talking about race!

Are you saying that Native Americans are dumb?
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Just like EVERYBODY else, some are and some are not.

That they have no clue about their very own existence?
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They may have clues, same as EVERYBODY else. Some clues may be helpful and some may be false clues. Before DNA tests were possible, the oral and written histories of peoples were closely examined to try and determine peoples' origins. But that method has serious limits.

Me? And only me?? I said before I spoke with my Native American family and all of them agreed that we didnt decend from Asia
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Okay, sorry. Hypersensitivity runs in the family.

Because it's very hurtful to put a title on someone....
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Yet you label yourself a Native American, part Cree, and TheCanuck.


I listened. You failed to provide any real evidence that would trump prevailing hypotheses. That is the bottom line. You can hem and haw, rant and rage, and bark at the moon if you want to, but until you provide something better than your STUBBORN INSISTENCE to the country, I believe that (pure) Native Americans are descended from Asians, and if we start with the usual three races, Native Americans are a subset of Asian.

SO does that make Irish descendants of Germans because they look similar? NO...
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The real hell of all this is, is that its hard as hell to find a pure Native American these days. There is so much mixing with Caucasian that Native Americans generally no longer resemble their Native American ancestors. You should see my son. He does not look Asian at all!

But looks are clues, like it or not. Fortunately we have a lot more to go on these days thanks to science.

I don't think things should just be stated without having a debate about the issue
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The debate has been had. We just chose a side and moved on.

I understand completely of what you're trying to say and you're right it's definitely not a big deal
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Glad we can agree on that. Of course there are some jerks out there who will try to use any sort of information to hurt you, whether you are short, tall, how long or short your hair is, what color it is, lips are thick or thin or whatever. We should never let their idiocy, intolerance and patheticness taint these debates.
 
Glenski said:
I hope you realize how dangerous that is, especially since you have already boasted that you and other NAmericans know where you came from. Don't weaken your case with contradictions and wild speculation.
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Boast? who's boasting here? Don't contradict myself? did you even read what I said in that post? I said it was from the top of my head just like many other people who use the whole appearance theory I myself can also guess what happened and why shouldn't I? and like I said IT'S A GUESS which means what exactly? it means that it could very well be false which I also stated in that same post did I say the PANGEA theory was fact? no I didn't... I also said that Native Americans COULD actually be Asians and I could be very very wrong about this whole thing but i'll still debate it and that was failed to be mentioned...

Glenski said:
Please do yourself a favor and educate yourself on some extremely basic principles.
1. Earliest hominid fossil evidence shows Man was around as a hominid in Chad about 7 million years ago
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Glenski said:
2. Pangaea broke up roughly 100 million to 200 million years ago. Kind of a big difference there. Kiss your "theory" bye-bye
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Ok.... so I'm gonna say this one more time... hopefully you'll understand my Pangea THEORY was just a quick thoughtI never ONCE said I was right and never ONCE said you were wrong.. is it wrong for me to have my own thoughts??? I didn't know that in todays age when someone brings a theory up others expect it to be fact....... so that's completely fine if I'm wrong with the Pangea THEORY


Thanks for the history lesson I already knew about... Where did you get "Isolated Language" from??? Did I say the Cree were the ONLY Native Americans ever? and the only ones to speak Native tongue?
please tell me where are you getting these ideas from you must of not read my post clearly.. but either way yes there are inter tribal marriages does that mean that there not Native Americans anymore??? because they have families with other Native tribes in America? how does this help you in your own argument?
As for the Christian thing I didn't speak on behalf of everyone all I said was as a Native American I'm no christian due to my own beliefs...
 
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from what I know native americans are proto-asians...meaning they descend from people who used to live in the area before the people who we know now as asians moved in.....

so native americans came from asia...but they are not necessarily asian
 
How did culture and story come into this??? I thought we were talking about race!
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Culture has everything to do with race but I wasn't only talking about culture it's about everything of that specific race which means culture history etc. where I was getting at is that just because someone's not a scientist doesn't mean they don't know their own race and everything included...



Ok you need to understand when I say "They have no clue" I'm not actually talking about clues.... This is not a detective case....all I mean when I say "They have no clue" is that they have no knowledge or information on the subject..

Okay, sorry. Hypersensitivity runs in the family
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Alright listen I'm not gonna be replying to little immature children that can't have a normal mature conversation, if you're gonna be like this then I have no reason to speak with you any further

Yet you label yourself a Native American, part Cree, and TheCanuck
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My Nationality has nothing to do with my Race..


Sure I'll send you the links with which my information is based off, PURE Native Americans? Well we're not talking abbout IMPURE Native Americans here.... and what hypotheses exactly are you talking about here?


Go talk to my cousins they're "Pure" Native American.......... and there's actually a lot if you actually lived in the americas you would recognize this... we didn't get killed off the face of the earth.. but I know what you're trying to say that the "Hunting Red Men Of The American Plains Is No Longer...." unfortunately things change and stuff happened right? we don't need to go hunting anymore because we're living in the 2000s.. we're more advanced in technology and many other things.. that doesn't make full blooded Natives NON Natives... that's like me saying you're not Japanese unless you have a samurai sword in your hands and walking with samurai armor on.... that's not how it works....

But looks are clues, like it or not. Fortunately we have a lot more to go on these days thanks to science.
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Has Christopher Columbus not taught anyone anything?? Columbus too based his assumptions on looks...
was he right in the end??? No... He sure wasn't.. far from it actually..
so no looks aren't clues because EVERYBODY doesn't look the same....

The debate has been had. We just chose a side and moved on.
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I'm sorry that you feel that way because I'm not gonna just sit here and say ok you're right because that's what a debate is
there is no solid evidence.. so there is no solid answer... so for anyone to finalize this issue is in the wrong
but each to their own and if you wanna believe what you wanna believe than go for it I'm not saying don't do that but at least have some consideration for the opposing side


So sorry if it's making you uneasy or angry at me that's not my intentions at all.. I'm just trying to stick up for the "under dog" if you know what I mean because like I said there is no solid answer for both sides of the topic and the majority "which are mainly non natives" say that there is.. and there isn't
 
The Canuck....I suggest you look up the aboriginals of taiwan....they seem to be proto-asians like native americans

here is an example of them
 
Canuck,
Yes, I read what you wrote. I think you forgot some of it, though, or you have not made yourself clear enough. Early on, you wrote:
and and then this
Are you saying that Native Americans are dumb? That they have no clue about their very own existence? My elders would tell you different
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and
I spoke with my Native American family and all of them agreed that we didnt decend[sic] from Asia
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These statements pretty much say you (just you or the plural you referring to most if not all NAmericans) absolutely and assuredly know your origins. What's more, you initially seemed open to scientific evidence, or so it seemed when you wrote this:
I don't think things should just be stated without having a debate about the issue I really don't care if people are categorizing I just want the truth to be told
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and
I would rather debate on it than just accept what I'm being told
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Debates probe strong and weak points in an attempt to get at the truth, unless either party is just having a go at someone, which is not the case here as far as I can tell.

So, the controversy/contradiction arose when you wrote this:
Honestly this was alllll guessing on my part I was just trying to come up with another theory from the top of my head
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That referred to the Pangaea theory, which doesn't even enter into human/hominid migration, as you seemed to discover later. The point is, you are both guessing and telling us what you say you know. Why are you guessing? Why say both of these things when they contradict each other? That's what I was driving at earlier when I referred to you "boasting". Can you see the conflict of statements you made here?

There's also this:
I also said that Native Americans COULD actually be Asians and I could be very very wrong about this whole thing but i'll still debate
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I'm glad to see you are open to debate, but that is directly opposite to your earlier claim:
I spoke with my Native American family and all of them agreed that we didnt decend[sic] from Asia
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With regard to Pangaea, after I pointed out how incorrect the notion is to involve humans/hominids in it, one thing you wrote in your defense was:
that's completely fine if I'm wrong with the Pangea THEORY
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Maybe it's the way you write, but I have to be sure here. You wrote "if". "If" you were wrong. Are you still claiming you could be right about that point?

Language of the Cree. You initially wrote:
My people have our own language and our own writing "syllabics" is what they're called
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I was under the assumption that "we" referred to just your tribe of Cree, non-inclusive of any other tribes. So, I showed you that Cree is a subset of a larger language family and suggested that it evolved further by inter-tribal marriages. You responded with an outrageous reply:
1. "Isolated" means "our own"; I was using your words in parentheses earlier, but I guess that slipped by you. If that's not what you meant by "our own language", then explain it better. I'm open.
2. As for ONLY Native Americans ever, I don't have a clue where you got that notion that I may have said that.
3. Also, "Native tongue" refers to what? There is/was more than one NAmerican language.
As for the Christian thing I didn't speak on behalf of everyone all I said was as a Native American I'm no christian due to my own beliefs...
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Yeah, I know you were speaking just on your own behalf. The problem is, the way you wrote then and now, you equate being Native American with being non-Christian, which is not necessarily a universal or something people should automatically assume, and that is what I tried to point out. You could have written it clearer if you had said, "I'm a NAmerican who holds true to traditional beliefs, therefore I'm not a Christian". Can you see the difference?
 
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Wait a minute. What are you trying to show here? You mention Pangaea and Beringia in the same quote. Are you saying they are the same? They are not, you know.

If you are trying to say NAmericans didn't come from the Asian continent, you just proved yourself wrong (at least in part with the second link above). I quote: "Native American mtDNA belongs to sub-haplogroups that are unique to the Americas and not found in Asia or Europe: A2, B2, C1, D1, and X2a (with minor groups C4c, D2, D3, and D4h3). Based on the study, the A2, B2, C1, and D1 groups are estimated to have developed between 18,000 and 21,000 years ago. Since the Native American mtDNA sub-haplogroups are not found in Asia, they are believed to have developed while founding groups were crossing into the Americas from Asia via Beringia.".

The first link is a joke, a totally useless and unsupported gamish of garbage. How can you even consider that it has any validity?

the 'Bering Strait Theory' has never
graduated beyond being a theory.
(Maybe not in 1590 when it was first conceived, but they didn't know about continental drift theory back then... and a lot more. There are a LOT of scientific theories, by the way, that hold as much water as is scientifically and technically possible.)

The Bering Strait Myth is not so much science as it is politics.
(Maybe for John Two-Hawks, the author of the link, but he is obviously biased. The "politics" he refers to is the justification of taking NAmerican land by European settlers heading west, justified because the "Indians" were never really owners/natives of the land. Uh, even if this was remotely so, how do you explain the fact that the "theory" still exists, holds water, and has nothing to do anymore with driving NAmericans out?)

Then there is the 'land bridge' itself.... In order to create
the Bering Strait 'bridge', we first need the timeless normal function
of the earth's wind, evaporation and precipitation patterns to, all of a
sudden, just change completely.
(No, we don't. Things like that DON'T change suddenly. *****.)

The Bering Strait theory would have us believe
that all of North America was uninhabited by human beings of
any kind until the supposed 'ice age'....
It is certainly
possible that a handful of ancient Siberian people over the course of
thousands of years may have found their way into the northern parts of
North America. The Inuit cultures of Alaska may well carry an ancient
connection with these people in their bloodlines. But this does not in
any way negate the foolishness of the notion that North America was
entirely devoid of humanity, and then suddenly became populated
entirely by Siberians wandering across a so-called frozen ice bridge.
(So, with a little sleight of verbal hand, are we led to believe that indeed North America was truly inhabited by people who magically arose out of the dirt? How did they get here if not by some sort of migration? Oh, and enough with this "suddenly" garbage, Mr. Two-Hawks! Besides, prevailing theory is NOT that a single event took place, nor that Asia was the sole possible source of those who arrived. Get your facts straight, sir.)

Here I want to address the 'Human Genome Project' issue. This is a
sensitive issue with many minority groups, and for good reason. The
fact is, people used to believe in God. Now they believe in science.
(Some believe in both. Insignificant people, you know, like Einstein. But this whole statement is a smokescreen for the next one anyway.)

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist
within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and
hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes
across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also
is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity.
(Forget definitions of races. That is more of a sociological thing anyway. DNA evidence proves evolution and potential origins, however, and that is what we're really talking about, Two-Hawks. You lose the bait and switch game again.)

To quote from Professor
Vine Deloria Jr., "We cannot today conceive of a natural process
that would evaporate this amount of water and transport it safely
from the temperate zones to ensure that it precipitated as ice in
Canada."
(Ooooo, a professor said this! Nice try at diversionary tactics, but no sale. That person is not a geologist, geneticist, Earth scientist, volcanologist, meteorologist, etc. Vine is a political scientist! Vine Deloria Jr. - Wikipedia. Are you going to take the above quote as gospel from a man whose chief claim to fame is authoring Custer Died for Your Sins?)

The Native people of this Turtle continent did
not 'migrate' to this land.... they have always been here..........
(Do I have to even make a jab at this ludicrous statement?)
 
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Alright listen I'm not gonna be replying to little immature children that can't have a normal mature conversation, if you're gonna be like this then I have no reason to speak with you any further
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I believe that was my line. Yes, you are being hypersensitive and so is your family. Not saying its racial or genetic, but by your words, it runs in the family. Could be your family culture.

But its also your convoluted thinking which is making me sign off on this one. You just go ahead and believe what you want to believe against all reason.
 
Such is the nature of some "debates", eh, Zorro?! Ole!
 
1, most of the ppl in the world just devide ppl into 3 crowds, black, yellow and white. There was nearly no chance that Native Americans traveled across the whole Atlantic ocean from Europe and Africa. Bering Strait had a big chance here.
2, I think most science evidence shows Native American traveled across Bering Strait.
3, I once saw a video program made by Chinese TV, discussed that Native Russians living in Siberia, and their connection with Chinese. The race recorded by TV even had a story of their ancestors that they fought with some ancient Chinese regional force and losed, so these native moved into Siberia region. And it is easy to see these men must have some gene communication with Eskimos. And I still prefer Eskimos are very similar with other parts natives of America.
4, But a most important thing is, culture. It is not important that who you are, it is who you believe you are really matters.I am farmilar with Chinese, so I just take Chinese as examples. In northeast China, there are 10s of millions of ppl believe themselves as muslims with yellow race face. They worship Muhammad, but they looked just so different from ppl living in middle east.
In 18th centry, an American Jew official came to China and happen to find some local Chinese official had the same religion with him. The thing was, some jews came to China about 1000 yrs ago living in Henan province.
My great great grandpa once joined Manchuria's army fought with other Chinese and Russian. My grandpa's brother used to work in Japanese hospital in WWII. My grandma's cousins were Korean Chinese but still joined into Chinese army and took battle in Korean war. But now, I am a Chinese and I still believe I myself as han ppl. So culture really matters.
 

Not sure how you knock science in one take then use parts of it to support a dying theory.

The 9 Repeat Alleles (9R) is not found in ALL Native Americans. It was only found in a third of the study samples from North America down to South America. It was a limited number of markers, in the actual study, 678. in 36% of the subjects carried this "Private Alleles" not found in Europeans. That is a single STR. This left 64% of the study (Native Americans) that did not carry this 9R.

While it is found unique within the Native American population, it's quite obvious from the study it's not found in all Native Americans which does not support a SINGLE migration theory or Native Americans originated in and of themselves. Also, Native American's carry halpogroups that originated in Asia A,B,C,D.
You are being disingenuous using this as an argument and representing this as all Native's have this 9R. Stamp that with fail.
PLOS Genetics: Genetic Variation and Population Structure in Native Americans

By the way, I am of documented Native american heritage, the Qualla (Cherokee.) I have no issue with Native American descended from Asia. My great grandfather was mistaken for being of Asian origins. While I respect oral traditions, and that of my own great grandfather as well, DNA can take a peak at origins, and even if it makes us uncomfortable at times, we need to consider that maybe, just maybe most of it is the truth.
 
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