Mixed use of plain and masu form, da/ desu.

user64344 · 27 Jul 2015

Hello there everyone.

Could anyone write some info on [thread title]. How is it perceived, when one is writing to someone, to switch back and forth between polite and plain form? Like, 「昨夜に夕食を食べまして、寝た。」, 「あれ、その人は誰だ？スウェーデンの方ですか？」.

There might be some specialist-linguist-literature on the subject, and while I very much can find and read through research papers and the like, I felt like asking this community wasn't totally inconsiderate either.

Thank you all.

Toritoribe · 28 Jul 2015

The first one sounds quite odd, or more likely, is wrong. The -te form doesn't have politeness or tense. It's provided by the verb at the end of the sentence. Thus, 昨夜夕食を食べて、寝ました。 is the correct one.

あれ、あの人は誰だ？スウェーデンの方ですか？ has no problem. In this case, the first sentence is interpreted as the question to the speaker themselves. その人 refers to the person nearby the one you are talking to, i.e, it's said to the addressee. You have to say あれ、その人/方はどなたですか？ in this case.

user64344 · 28 Jul 2015

Toritoribe said:
The first one sounds quite odd, or more likely, is wrong. The -te form doesn't have politeness or tense. It's provided by the verb at the end of the sentence. Thus, 昨夜夕食を食べて、寝ました。 is the correct one.

あれ、あの人は誰だ？スウェーデンの方ですか？ has no problem. In this case, the first sentence is interpreted as the question to the speaker themselves. その人 refers to the person nearby the one you are talking to, i.e, it's said to the addressee. You have to say あれ、その人/方はどなたですか？ in this case.

Mind explaining what you mean by "[t]he te-form doesn't have politeness or tense" (if that was the main issue?); mind explaining what the difference is between plain-variation and-masu variation when it comes to the te-form, and clarify what was quite odd about the first sentence.

I wrote その人 to refer to a person in the abstract domain, someone who the listener knows but I don't. Speaking for myself, your point wasn't made easily understandable, the correction included.

Perhaps I should clarify: The topic of discussion - Mixed use of plain and masu-form. What can be said about mixing plain and masu-form when one converses?

Toritoribe · 28 Jul 2015

If it's OK just to give a simple answer instead of answering using your, well, not-so-effective example sentences, the answer is "it's odd." The -te form is an exception. The -te form of the masu form (i.e. まして) sounds unusually/extraordinary polite when connecting clauses. In other words, it's possible to be used in respectful sentences, for instance 昨晩は夕食をいただきまして、そのあと床に就かせていただきました。. (昨晩は夕食をいただいて、そのあと床に就かせていただきました。 is more common even for this case, though. )

user64344 · 28 Jul 2015

I just wrote the sentences as random examples of mixing masu-form with plain-form, not necessarily letting them reflect how I myself would always write (as this is a special context). I wanted a response on "how one can mix usage of plain and masu-form", not just getting a "the example sentences are wrong" only to later hear "...it can work". I chose to go with the まして just to see what would happen (I've never written with it before, not being overly familiar of any special properties but knowing that it's used in expressions like はじめまして and どういたしまして). I don't think you got the intended point of this thread.

Effective example: 「昨日、私は夕食を作った。食事後寝ました。」. Is it more proper to stick to plain form rather than 寝ました since 作った was used before?

Toritoribe · 28 Jul 2015

You don't seem to get my point at all, I'm afraid. I repeatedly said that it's odd to mix those two forms.
As for はじめまして and どういたしまして, see the following thread. They are not the -te form of 始めます and 致します, respectively. (It's 初めまして in the first place.)
https://jref.com/threads/what-does-て-in-初めまして-mean.55151/

user64344 · 28 Jul 2015

「小林さんはスウェーデンに行くと言いました。」. Odd..?

「スウェーデンに行くから、お金を貯めています」. Odd..?

Toritoribe · 28 Jul 2015

You are asking about different grammatical structures. Do you need explanations regarding all kind of structures; indirect quotation, embedded question, coordinate clauses, subordinate clauses, for instance? If so, the only correct answer is "depending on the case".
Are you using a textbook or something, by the way?

user64344 · 28 Jul 2015

「昨日、私は夕食を作った。食事後寝ました。」. Is it more proper to stick to plain form rather than 寝ました since 作った was used before?

I still don't feel this has been properly answered.

EDIT: I might have given you the impression that I actually need your confirmation of certain things that I do already know, and since I find your answers in this thread to haven't been that relevant or made for productive discussion, I suggest we just stop. Regrettably.

View topic - mixing plain and polite speech | TheJapanesePage.com

View topic - Mixing polite and plain...politely | TheJapanesePage.com

Got my answer there. Probably shouldn't have bothered making a post here.

Toritoribe · 28 Jul 2015

"It's odd" can't be the answer?
I have an impression that you don't understand what you are asking or what the difference between your examples in this thread and the topic discussed in those threads is.
e.g.
質問者自身が質問の内容を理解していないと思います。
The polite form can't be used for the quotation of the contents of thoughts, thus, 理解していませんと思います is wrong.

質問者自身が質問の内容を理解しているかわかりません。
It's the same also for embedded question. 理解していますかわかりません is wrong, too.

繰り返し説明しましたが、質問者は理解しようとしませんでした。
The two clauses preceding and following が have strong independency with each other, as if they are two different sentences, therefore the level of politeness needs to be unified in the two clauses. Thus, 説明したが、理解しようとしませんでした sounds odd.

丁寧に説明したのに、質問者は聞く耳を持ちませんでした。
Unlike が, the politeness of the clause preceding のに is provided by the verb at the end of the sentence. 説明しましたのに is not wrong, but sounds ultra polite in this case.

You are obviously confusing these grammatical issues and the mixture of polite and casual sentences, and it seems that you don't even realize it.

nice gaijin · 29 Jul 2015

There are many grammar structures that seem to combine dictionary form and polite forms in a single sentence, but as Toritoribe said, the level is defined by the way the sentence ends. Your examples were not--for lack of a better word--good... to illustrate the point you were asking.

A better example of mixing forms would be two completely separate sentences, back to back, that end in different conjugations. I used to do stuff like this in written letters when I was learning Japanese, and although it felt right to not be repeating desu/masu all the time at the end of my sentences, it would always be corrected for me to use the same "voice."

So yes, you could mix the forms and still be understood, but it will sound strange/unnatural in most situations.

user64344 · 29 Jul 2015

Thank you both!

Toritoribe · 29 Jul 2015

I added some explanations in my post above.
By the way, you don't answer my previous question "Are you using a textbook or something?" yet. The reason I asked this was that textbooks must have these explanations. Your questions seem to show that you don't learn the language properly to me.

user64344 · 8 Aug 2015

Don't fret; I'm learning it properly. Gave you a bad impression by this thread, which admittedly lacked forethought.

Mixed use of plain and masu form, da/ desu.

user64344

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