James Clavell's Shogun

I take issue with "Phelonious's" statement. How, pray-tell, can one place such a dismissive judgment on what is supposed to be historical fiction in the first place? Of course the names are changed and the situations never REALLY happened exactly as they may have occured historically. It's a NOVEL! And based, at least, on a real Westerner and real Japanese, unlike, say LAST SAMURAI, which I also, actually, enjoyed (except the ninja's....insert eyeroll).

It's Clavell's best, by my account. Definitely worth reading, and much more juicy than the miniseries, which I also enjoyed.

The movie was awsome i think... i liked the girl a lot sexyyyyy ....

i liked the story, and i liked that with every japanese word he said it in english to.... nice learning for japanese also ....

great movie..!!! i watched the 9 hours isnt (12....) in 2 days...

I really enjoyed Shogun, although it got a little too political towards the end. I want to second senseiman's recommendation of "Samurai William." It uses the diaries of various sea-faring Europeans to give a good illustration of what Japan was like (in the eyes of the Europeans, anyway) It's a history book, but it is actually entertaining to read.

The book was so good that my school work suffered because i could not stop reading it. Also I bought the DVD series and my schoolwork suffered even more!!! Read the book and watch the movies today people!!Shogun=the cool.

I read the book so many times I wore out five copies so far. And when I took a course in asian hsitory in college I heard about Bill the sailor and after reading that I was truely amazed.

One thing I want is some Japanese people to give their reactions to the book and series!

窶堙ｦ窶堋ｱ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｾﾂ is one of the world's greatest faces and her acting is a measure that all otehr actresses should strive to meet.

i read it as a teenager
it was a lot of fun but basially a boys hero story that idealises the samurai era
i think any mature adult wouldnt be that interested

Havent Read it

I got the book a while back and ill be honest it looks a bit daunting. It sounds interesting from what you all said, yet I need to find out if I can fit it in with all the other books I am currently reading. I can't believe I still havent read it.
I wonder how many other people buy a book and never read it, just sitting on their shelves? It makes me feel guilty.

I read it back in seventh grade and have read it twice again since. I remember going all over to find the miniseries on tape (this was before dvds existed) and finally staying up for two days watching it. I have heard horrible things about the abridged version and never felt compelled to watch it. My brother acquired the dvd box set last year and I watched it again; as most things, it wasn't nearly as good as I remember from when I was a kid.

The only other Clavell novel I've read was King Rat, which I remember being very good, but Shogun remains my favorite. It gave me my first first language lesson and my glimpse into old Japanese culture, both some good and bad aspects. Don't get me started on crap like "The Last Samurai," where Tom Cruise was simply a vehicle to bring the movie to an American audience. I agree that the story of the real sailor would have made a better historical depiction of what really happened, but I think that by instead writing a novel loosely based on William's exploits, Clavell was able to make use of his creative license and take liberties with the story, and didn't have to conform to a singular reality to maintain historical accuracy.

I know that James Clavell's Shogun has already been mentioned in the Literature & Arts forum, but I was also wondering people's thoughts on historical fiction about Japan in general. A couple of other examples that come to mind are Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden and Japanese Inn by Oliver Statler.

First, I am not familiar with any historical fiction titles about Japan written by Japanese authors, so if anyone knows of some good ones, please, let me know!!! Onegaishimasu!

As for the books I have read . . . well, should they be read as entertainment only or does the historical fiction genre prove a useful tool for popularizing history? I suppose the easy answer is that it depends on the author and the book.

For example, Umberto Eco writes such well-researched and documeted fiction, I have seen his novels about Europe used as textbooks for European medieval history classes! Likewise, I took a class where Statler's Japanese Inn was used as a reference text regarding certain events in Japanese history. When supported by more academic texts, I suppose they made excellent parables about what was. (Also, A Distant Mirror gets used academically from time to time.)

But, then, I wonder how many people take 'fiction' too seriously. Or, can fictional works be taken too seriously? Maybe not, maybe so. Consider . . .

The film adaptation of Memoirs of a Geisha has caused quite some stir in China because a Chinese actress plays a Japanese courtesan, which some take to be further degradation of the Chinese by the Japanese. Er . . . but everyone realizes this is a fictional story written by an American turned into a movie directed by an American, right? Already the controversy starts, and we haven't even began the discussion about its historical accuracy (which, to take Iwasaki Mineko's word for it - the geisha who apparently was the inspiration for Golden's heroine - it isn't very accurate at all).

Hm.

On the other hand, Japanese Inn by Oliver Statler manages to accurately cover many major events of 400 years of Japanese history and culture in a very readable 360 pages of narrative. And to date, as far as I know, it has not been vehmently and publicy denounced by anyone. Of course, no one bothered to make it into a major motion picture either.

So . . . looking for a coherent thought or question in all of this, do you think it worthwhile to:

1) Use historical fiction as a reference to past events/cultures?

2) Debate the social/moral impact/responsibility of something that is essentially a work of fiction?

Another tag-on thought . . . more people have read Golden than Statler, thus the controversy surrounding Memoirs. So, I think popularity causes polarization (hate/love?), and Statler's Japanese Inn would be subject to the same level of scrutiny and controversy as Memoirs of a Geisha. Or are some subjects (both historical and fictional) more fraught with social peril (which, think about it, I would suppose is the case)?

Hm, indeed.

And because I can't help but sometimes stir things up sorry: :sorry: :sorry: ), would Japanese texts of 20th century Japanese history be considered historical fiction? FOr that matter, how about historical texts anywhere? I mean, historical revision has really gained a lot of steam over the last 20 or so years. Considering the debate that arises of history textbooks, is anything that one hasn't witnessed first-hand fictional?

phelonious said:

the book's absolute fantasy. an essentialist's dream of something that never was.

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It is a piece of art ...

It is not meant to be completely historically or socialogically accurate.

It gave american audences a chance to see the great Toshiro Mifune and a fine performance by Yoko Shimada ... it also exposed them to the japanese language and a little bit of the culture.

It gave them a small taste of old japan in a way which treated it subject with respect. -- this was rather new for american audiences at the time many of who had only thought in terms of japan as our enemy in world war II.

I think it still stands the test of time and is a very well done film.

Great book

Wow, just finished Shogun last night. As a fairly slow reader, I spent many-a-night awake until 3am but simply could not put it down. Then I would fall asleep and dream about it. The world he creates seems so real, it was easy to imagine myself it in.

I was not completely satisfied with the ending, however. Yes, the getting-there was brilliant, and there was an obvious climax of sorts (that I won't spoil), but then it felt like Clavell suddenly realized, "Holy Jeez, I'm on page 1,000 already?! Better wrap it up." I guess I really want to know what happens next, and next, and next... and now I never will!

By the way...

Shooter452 said:

Blackthorne--the Anjin-san--was raised up to the exalted position of hatamoto by Toranaga-sama (for services rendered and more to come later). He was not made samurai, which was largely a hereditary position which only a Japanese could hold.

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Having just finished it, I can tell you that this statement is inaccurate; Blackthorne absolutely was made samurai, and Mariko and others refer to him as such many times.

deadhippo said:

i read it as a teenager
it was a lot of fun but basially a boys hero story that idealises the samurai era
i think any mature adult wouldnt be that interested

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While I won't claim to be a "mature" adult, I'm 37, just read it, and thought it was brilliant. I'm a history buff and read mostly non-fiction, and did not in any way feel that this book idealized the samurai era. Considering the sheer volume of popular culture available on the topic of samurai and ninja (mostly idiotic), I think Clavell did one of the most admirable jobs ever in showing what it really was like, and in trying to capture the mindset of the people of that time.

Clavell did a remarkable job in switching "voices" throughout the book, and when you were in Blackthorne's "head" he absolutely condemned the brutality, the violence, and the cheapness of human life. There are numerous instances when Blackthorne is shocked and dismayed, and even devastated (in the case of his cook, for example, those of you who recently read it will know what I'm talking about). On the other hand, when in the "head" of the Japanese characters, he tried to portray how that brutality seemed to make totally logical sense to them.

One of my favorite things about the book is the way Blackthorne changes over time to appreciate SOME of the Japanese culture, such as their emphasis on cleanliness and medicine, and their lack of hang-ups about sex. He thinks back to how disgusting living conditions were in Europe, how misinformed their doctors were. However, he NEVER accepts the brutality or the superiority of the samurai over the commoners. At the end, he learns to politely maneuver the other samurai to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, and that is how he overcomes it. This is very complex stuff, and in 99% of other popular books/movies/etc, he would simply have become "the worst badass of them all," out-brutalizing everyone else.

I think it's particularly poignant that as brave as he was, he never learned to use his samurai swords during the novel; I think that's a metaphor for his never fully accepting their bushido code.

Clavell's continued use of the concept of karma may have seemed less relevant to you when you read it as a teenager. I, for one, am glad I only just got to this book now, as an adult.

i saw the series in school and really like it alot. then i saw it again on cable, the family channel i think. when i watch it again, it seem very old, but i enjoyed watching it again. i read part of the book, but i got bored with it and quit. it is a good book, but it is too long.

Shogun the novel was based loosely on the exploits of several real-life characters, fused into one story. Both Mariko and Blackthorne had counterparts in history: Gracia Hosokawa and Will Adams, respectively.

Toranaga, of course, is supposed to be Ieyasu Tokugawa.

Clavell did not just sit down and pen a fantasy. Like other historical novelists he does not (nor--and this is important--does he claim to) tell factually true stories, but represents historical events and personalities to give a sense of history on a metaphorical level. To dismiss the whole novel as a fantasy is shortsighted and unfair.

The 2-hour edited version of the film has added violence and allows you to see Yoko Shimada's breasts. Those are the only additions to a butchered 9-hour full edit (which has minimal violence and no nudity--it was a prime time TV miniseries in the US, after all.)

I highly recommend reading the book before seeing the video, and I recommend seeing the 9-hour version before--sigh--you decide you just have to see Mariko's breasts and rent the two-hour version.

The book has its flaws, but on the whole it's a great read for anyone interested in the beginning machinations of the Edo period. There were some interesting reviews contrasting the film with the movie somewhere online; I'll see if I can find them.

I met James Clavell back in 1977-78 and got him to sign my copy of "Shogun." Unfortunately, I misplaced it or it got swiped.

By the way, that's Blackthorne in my avatar.

I noticed, and your user name is the name given to him by his captors, since "Blackthorne" was too hard for them to pronounce

That must have been interesting, Armand. Was it a book-signing or a chance encounter?

nice gaijin said:

That must have been interesting, Armand. Was it a book-signing or a chance encounter?

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Neither. He was a special guest at a political dinner for a California State Assemblyman I used to work for. Later, maybe about a week or two, I was up in the state capitol in Sacramento and he was there at a party I attended in another assemblyman's office.

ArmandV said:

I met James Clavell back in 1977-78 and got him to sign my copy of "Shogun." Unfortunately, I misplaced it or it got swiped.

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Oh my God, that sucks so bad, dude.

anjinsan said:

The 2-hour edited version of the film has added violence and allows you to see Yoko Shimada's breasts. Those are the only additions to a butchered 9-hour full edit (which has minimal violence and no nudity--it was a prime time TV miniseries in the US, after all.)

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It's a lot like David Lynch's Dune miniseries (not the Sci-Fi Channel one). Both were originally longer, but edited for violence/nudity. The movies were shorter, cut out lots of stuff, but had all the violence (and in the case of Dune, better special effects).

The DVD containing the bonus material that comes with the set is quite interesting; interviews with the surviving cast members (Yoko Shimada is still gorgeous) and people on the production crew. The American crew members found working in Japan to be incredibly difficult. The Japanese studio cameras were - surprisingly - a couple of decades behind the American ones. The American crew was also a little frustrated by the way the Japanese set builders worked. In the US the set builders build sets to be taken apart easily when the shooting is completed. The Japanese set builders were constructing the sets to last, almost as though they were real houses or rooms, or whatever. On top of that, Japan didn't have nails back then, so the set builders were constructing the sets with period materials; wood pegs and ropes mostly.

Japan didn't have nails back then

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The Japanese set-builders did reportedly disingenuously remark that they had "never seen" double-head nails, which the US production crew had offered them to speed up set-building. I suspect this was a way of deflecting a conflict so they could continue working in the traditional way.

As Jonerik points out, the Japanese crew insisted on building the sets properly and not as facades. (Would that this same desire for high production values existed in current Japanese TV dramas....)

Japan did of course have nails in the 1970's.

anjinsan said:

Japan did of course have nails in the 1970's.

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Yes. By "back then" I meant circa 1600.

I loved this book, i've read it 3 times through and I originally read it for my great books class. I've also seen the mini series and both movies. I love how it shows you the mindset of japan back in the 1600's, the only real thing that never made sense to me was how mariko knew english unless back then they also knew some english.

Riyko said:

the only real thing that never made sense to me was how mariko knew english unless back then they also knew some english.

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If you'll remember, Mariko was a Christian and learned English from Father Alvito who compiled the first Japanese/Portuguese or was it Spanish?)/English dictionary.

She probably also attended ECC or NOVA in the evenings when she was visiting Tokyo.