itte iru

nekocat said:

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.
母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの？
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！

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It is not the idea of the word 行く・来る alone, but the combination of these words plus いる.
My feeling is that the meaning of いる (to stay) works much stronger when it is combinied with 行く・来る.
To me, 今行ってる in the above example does sound wrong. I can guess what this girl is trying to say, but I cannot help feeling something is wrong...
（違和感）

I've asked some questions to my colleagues (you know, I was getting less confident about my feeling... after all it could only my feeling and and there's nothing to back it up ;

When you hear （～に）行っている, what could it mean?
(a) when the subject is 鈴木さん
(b) when the subject is 私

1. generic statement of habit, repeated action, like
学校に行っている（＝通っている）
2. present continuous
～に行く途中

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(a)
1. OK.
2. This varies depending on the person I asked, some says this sounds OK, others says it does not sound right, one person elaborated that it is closed to 3, whether Suzuki san has reached the destination or not yet is not an issue, just Suzuki san has left.
3. OK.

(b)
1. OK.
2. Most says it is impossible - only one person says that she can guess what it is meant to be, though the common comments I got from them all is "I would not use it myself when saying I'm on the way" and alternatively they suggested 行く途中 instead of 行っている.
3. NG. It's impossible unless one is talking about the future event. e.g.
来週の木曜日には中国に行っている（ここにはいない） 。

I don't know how general/common such feeling like the above about 行っている・来ている, though...

nekocat said:

Didn't you want to say "...when it's combined with 本動詞", not adjective?

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Maybe... (sorry I don't know what 本動詞 means. "Adjective" was a mistake. I meant to say ～になっていく・くる but getting/becoming + adjective was in my head... Thank you anyway, for pointing it out!

nekocat said:

Good analysis! That would be because the verb 行く includes both aspects: one in which 行く is similar in meaning to that of 着く (to reach). One in which 行く is the action of going itself. The former is a perfective verb, whearas the latter is a non-perfective verb (just like Slavic languages). Some types of Japanese verbs comprise both these aspects in one verb. Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。

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Are you from the kansai region? B/c I would do the same, but I can't speak 標準語 very well at all.

nekocat said:

行かなかった: simple past
行かないでいた: remain in the state of "not going." （行かない状態のままいた）
文法的に違うよ。

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意味には違いがないと思うけど、「文法」に差があるよ うですね。
日本語には、英語にない、表現やなかなか伝えにくいニ ュアンスがたくさんありますね。
それで、その２つの構文の間に意味の相違もないように 思ったら、あまりそれを気にしないです。


行かなかったも行かないでいたも どちらも、would not have gone といった感じですが、
行かなかったのほうが普通につかわれるでしょうね。


手伝ってくれてどうもありがとう！

FrustratedDave said:

Are you from the kansai region? B/c I would do the same, but I can't speak 標準語 very well at all.

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I don't get this whole dialect thing because people I know from Osaka at least tell me 大阪弁 is rarely used in public life anymore. It is something that happens almost entirely on the "street" level and between very close friends....Well, except for those comedians and the yakuza guys, I'm not touching that one for now....

Elizabeth said:

I don't get this whole dialect thing because people I know from Osaka at least tell me 大阪弁 is rarely used in public life anymore. It is something that happens almost entirely on the "street" level and between very close friends....Well, except for those comedians and the yakuza guys, I'm not touching that one for now....

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I don't know who your friends are, but Osaka ben is very real and very much used at many levels.

FrustratedDave said:

I don't know who your friends are, but Osaka ben is very real and very much used at many levels.

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I think what they meant were that general level public activities (shopping, asking directions, eating out, transportation etc) not only could be, but for them routinely are, conducted without problem in normal (行ってるところ） Japanese.


No one is denying of course there are still back pockets you can hear the very deep, old style dialects. All and all, it's very unlikely to be nearly as widespread as 2-3 generations ago, but then again they haven't lived in the place full time for 20 years either...So I suppose how the strength of it appears is ultimately a matter of perspective, judging from the past forward, plus crucially one's comfort level with 標準語.

Elizabeth said:

I think what they meant were that general level public activities (shopping, asking directions, eating out, transportation etc) not only could be, but for them routinely are, conducted without problem in normal (行ってるところ） Japanese.
No one is denying of course there are still back pockets you can hear the very deep, old style dialects. All and all, it's very unlikely to be nearly as widespread as 2-3 generations ago, but then again they haven't lived in the place full time for 20 years either...So I suppose how the strength of it appears is ultimately a matter of perspective, judging from the past forward, plus crucially one's comfort level with 標準語.

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Sorry, I just re-read my last post and it seemed a little too direct, sorry.

My work dealing with the elderly may have a bit to do with the fact that I feel Osaka ben is still very ,very strong. However the younger generation still do use that deep slang in my experience. I don't know if you are judging if it used by the way they speak to you or from what they are telling you? One other thing, where are they from now and originally?

Sorry to derail.

I'll write more detailed replies tomorrow, so let me keep it brief today.

To me, 今行ってる in the above example does sound wrong. I can guess what this girl is trying to say, but I cannot help feeling something is wrong...
（違和感）

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As I have written somewhere, 行く in Japanese have two meanings (aspects, to be precise).

行く to go and reach
行く to go and be going

In your mind the former is more dominant.

nekocat said:

I'll write more detailed replies tomorrow, so let me keep it brief today.
As I have written somewhere, 行く in Japanese have two meanings (aspects, to be precise).
行く to go and reach
行く to go and be going
In your mind the former is more dominant.

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It isn't a question of individual mind or undrentide-san's personal interpretation.

The only ambiguity possible to standard Japanese in the conjugations offered above is how strongly 行ってる implies "has arrived" or simply "is no longer here" from the perspective of a third party. Of course unless that person has reported their whereabouts or has a camera pointed on them it can ultimately only be conjecture in any case. Whether the feeling is that they are already at school or not is basically irrelevant to the facts of the situation and the reality of their present location.


とにかく、上の状況では、娘は学校に行っている途中か、学校に到着している(行っている）かをはっきり確かめることができませんね。