Giving and receiving verbs

Trin · 16 Oct 2015

こんにちは、皆さん。元気ですか。Hello, all. I just finished a series covering あげる、もらう、くれる。 I just wanted to run what I have learned by all of you just to make sure I have everything correct.
First off is あげる it means " to give" and the pattern is giver+は+receiver+に+thing+をあげる/てあげる. It is also attached to the て form of verbs. It is used when someone, including yourself gives something or does something for someone of the same or lower social rank.
くれる also means "to give" and follows the same pattern as あげる , but it is used when the receiver is the speaker or someone close to the speaker. Also attaches to the て form of verbs.
もらう means "to receive" and the pattern is receiver+は+giver+に+thing+をもらう/てもらう. It can also attach to the て form of verbs. This form is used when the speak or someone close to the speaker receives something from someone of same or lower social status. Any help is greatly appreciated.

友達は僕にお土産をくれた。My friend gave me a gift.
緑の目が社長に僕は報道を書いてもらう。 The boss with green eyes wrote the report for me.
男子はかわい女子にリンゴごをあげている。The boy is giving the girl a apple.

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2015

Trin said:
緑の目が社長に僕は報道を書いてもらう。 The boss with green eyes wrote the report for me.

The boss is the subject in the English sentence, whereas 僕 is the subject in the Japanese one.

report: 勤務評定
cf. the boss with green eyes: 緑色の目の社長/上司 or 緑色をした目の社長/上司
(I think it's better to remove "with green eyes" since such modification is not appropriate in this kind of simple example sentence.)

Trin said:
男子はかわい女子にリンゴごをあげている。The boy is giving the girl a apple.

男の子/女の子 is better. 男子/女子 with no modification is often used as plural.
There is no かわいい in the original English sentence.

Trin · 16 Oct 2015

Thanks you very much! Only a few minor problems.

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2015

Not really. You completely failed in the second example. (The meaning is the same, but the expression is different, which is the key of these "giving/receiving" expressions in Japanese.)

Majestic · 16 Oct 2015

Trin said:
It is used when someone, including yourself gives something or does something for someone of the same or lower social rank.

Same or higher rank, I think.

Trin · 16 Oct 2015

Every mistake is a step closer to becoming fluent for me. Even in defeat I am determined to learn from the failure and press on.
I am sorry to trouble you further but what would be the difference between くれる and もらう ? I understand the grammar and such, but when translating the two seem to sound the same.
友達は僕に魚をくれた。 My friend got my fish. 僕に友達は魚をもらった I got fish from my friend. Are these two translations correct?

Trin · 16 Oct 2015

I just checked and it is used when the rank is roughly equal.

Majestic · 16 Oct 2015

Hmmm, あげる implies raising up from one level to a higher level. There is an even more polite version: さしあげる. Anyway, for あげる the natural implication is that you give (raise up) something to someone who exists in a higher plane than you. As a reflection of good manners, you would also use this to someone of the same station. Actually, you can even use it to express giving something to someone at a lower station than you, as this is also good manners.

The specific verb for handing (or doing something for) to a person of lower status is やる.
犬にエサをやった。
こどもに小遣いをやった。
But, nowadays, you are just as likely to hear people say 犬にエサをあげた。

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2015

Trin said:
友達は僕に魚をくれた。 My friend got my fish. 僕に友達は魚をもらった I got fish from my friend. Are these two translations correct?

友達は僕に魚をくれた。
My friend gave me a/his fish.

Trin said:

くれる also means "to give" and follows the same pattern as あげる , but it is used when the receiver is the speaker or someone close to the speaker.

Click to expand...

Trin said:

First off is あげる it means " to give" and the pattern is giver+は+receiver+に+thing+をあげる/てあげる.

Click to expand...

友達は僕に/から魚をもらった。
My friend received a/my fish from me.

Trin said:
もらう means "to receive" and the pattern is receiver+は+giver+に+thing+をもらう/てもらう.

Trin said:
I just checked and it is used when the rank is roughly equal.

あげる can be used for "lowers", whereas you can't say 社長にプレゼントをあげた except you don't respect your boss (in a sarcastic tone when talking with your friend, for instance).

The following thread might be somewhat helpful.
Please help me understand these two sentences! ～てもらう、～てくれる | Japan Forum

WonkoTheSane · 16 Oct 2015

Majestic said:
But, nowadays, you are just as likely to hear people say 犬にエサをあげた。

Don't tell my teacher that, she was quite adamant about さしあげる、あげる、and やる。 I tried to sneak a さしあげる through to a cat as a joke, and got my ears boxed!

Trin · 16 Oct 2015

Thank you, Toritoribe-san. By the way, what does your name mean?

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2015

It's an official position name in the ancient Japanese government, and also the etymology of the name of the place where I live. It roughly means "Swan Catcher". (Actually, the correct reading of the position is a bit different, though.)

mdchachi · 16 Oct 2015

As I suspected, this topic has been covered pretty well on this guy's blog.
Expressions for giving and receiving in Japanese (objects and actions) [intermediate] | Self Taught Japanese

Majestic · 16 Oct 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
I tried to sneak a さしあげる through to a cat as a joke, and got my ears boxed!

Well, cats are god-like anyways, so probably さしあげる is, in fact, the most appropriate. (At least from the cat's point of view!)

Toritoribe · 16 Oct 2015

mdchachi said:
As I suspected, this topic has been covered pretty well on this guy's blog.
Expressions for giving and receiving in Japanese (objects and actions) [intermediate] | Self Taught Japanese

Well, I have to add some corrections to it.
あげる
When someone gives to someone else (There is no limitation in the giver and the recipient, except the social relationship.)
e.g.
彼は妹に花を買ったあげた。(妹 refers to his sister.)

くれる
When someone gives to the speaker and the speaker's in-group member(s)
e.g.
彼は妹に花を買ってくれた。(妹 refers to the speaker's sister.)

もらう
When someone receives something from someone else (There is no limitation in the giver and the recipient.)
e.g.
妹は彼に花を買ってもらった。(妹 refers to the speaker's sister. It can be his or someone's sister if it's obvious from the context, though.)

mdchachi · 16 Oct 2015

Toritoribe said:
Well, I have to add some corrections to it.

If you want to help that guy out, you'll need to put a comment on his blog. :woot:

By the way, here's a tricky question for everybody. We all know that you should say やる for giving things to dogs etc. But sometimes people still say あげる。How about くれる? Like:
犬は泥棒が入ったことを教えてくれた。(My dog notified me that a thief had entered.)
I think this sounds ok but is there a corollary for くれる like there is for あげる-やる?

WonkoTheSane · 17 Oct 2015

mdchachi said:
If you want to help that guy out, you'll need to put a comment on his blog. :woot:

By the way, here's a tricky question for everybody. We all know that you should say やる for giving things to dogs etc. But sometimes people still say あげる。How about くれる? Like:
犬は泥棒が入ったことを教えてくれた。(My dog notified me that a thief had entered.)
I think this sounds ok but is there a corollary for くれる like there is for あげる-やる?

Isn't the dog giving you something (information) instead of you giving the dog something? So wouldn't the status of giver and receiver be correct anyway?

I don't know, probably above my pay grade.

Mike Cash · 17 Oct 2015

mdchachi said:
If you want to help that guy out, you'll need to put a comment on his blog. :woot:

By the way, here's a tricky question for everybody. We all know that you should say やる for giving things to dogs etc. But sometimes people still say あげる。How about くれる? Like:
犬は泥棒が入ったことを教えてくれた。(My dog notified me that a thief had entered.)
I think this sounds ok but is there a corollary for くれる like there is for あげる-やる?

I think 泥棒に入られたことを知らせてくれた might be a wee bit better.

mdchachi · 17 Oct 2015

Well the point was that there's no corollary to the giving verbs. You give "down" to the dog. But it seems the dog can give to you at the same level with くれる。

And here's another fun fact for Trin. You can combine the giving/receiving verbs. For example you could say something like:

本をあげてくれる？

Any thoughts as to what this means?

Toritoribe · 17 Oct 2015

mdchachi said:
If you want to help that guy out, you'll need to put a comment on his blog. :woot:

Quite reasonable opinion.

Giving and receiving verbs

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