Enough is Enough... some thoughts on thread subjects.

Okay people, I thought I might bang out this little memo, and see how it resounds off the general populace of the forums... We seem get a lot of similar posts and I wanted to perhaps, oh say, offer some suggestions about the types of posts that can produce positive discussion... I'll run through some common topics and give you examples of how fruitless their discussion can be... These are my opinions, but as I'm told I'm an opinionated bastard, so, take it all w/ a grain of salt...

(A) Why were [such and such Japanese] racist to me, or why did they treat me poorly?, (B)Why doesn't a Japanese person in my class pay attention to me?

(A) Believe it or not, no one can answer this question... If we were talking about a group of machines and you asked, "Why does my computer stop functioning when I pour bacon grease into the hard drive...?" we might have a good idea of the answer we could give you... But everyone is different, and there are no distinct characteristics of (all) Japanese that dictate that they might treat whatever your race may be specifically different than anyone else. There are many many many discussions on some inherent ideas of racism that exist in Japan, but they don't have anything to do with YOU personally.

(B) Again. Who knows, perhaps you are an abhorrent person who does not deserve the friendship of another human being? I kid... I joke... But again, the details of the situation are outside of our knowledge... I imagine even if we were your classmates, our answers would only be nebulous attempts to define another's personal feelings... Get over it, the Japanese aren't alergic to you.

(A) Do Japanese girls really like guys from [Insert your country here]

(A) Here is the deal. As is my experience, women (and men), from all over the world are fascinated, attracted to people who are exotic and different from themselves. Perhaps from some ill-conceived notion, perhaps simply because they are completely different than the white (or brown!) bread that they are used to... I saw a whole group of Caucasian-girlfriends swoon over an Italian soccer team... An incident dictated perhaps by a combination of ruggedness & foreign mystique. It's part and parcel of the mysteries of interracial relationships. But, as a favourite poet of mine once told me, It's a mistake to think you're special. Go where you are unique, and surprise! You just may become the subject of attraction.

(A) Why do you like Japanese women/men?

(A) The problem with this question is that the easiest answer is from people who say "Because she is my [girlfriend/wife], and I love her...", most all other answers are forfeit, and exist on a preconceived notion about what we think about the Japanese that we've seen in movies, or heard second hand... Anyone who has dated a Japanese woman has gotten that "Oh, she must be so demure and subservient!"... Japanese women are different than American women, and they're different than Ukrainian women, and they are different from women all over the world, but again, they aren't computers--- You don't pick out a girlfriend the way you pick out a car, based on a preset list of qualities... Everyone is different, and though some share some similar qualities, it's pointless to try to generalize the Japanese as if they were a product you were going to purchase. Replace this question with What do you like about White Girls? and you see how ridiculous it is.

Okay... that's all for now... maybe some others can add their thoughts... If this all sounds like a big internet bully, just take it as someone who's trying to give some advice on the nature of generalizations... Generalizations are necessary to talk about a group of people as a whole, but they don't work very well when you're talking about individuals, or preconceived notions of a group of people whom you've never met & can never adequately compare.

A golden rule: to leave an incomplete image of oneself.
-Emile M. Cioran

Thank-you...well said!

So, what do you like about white girls? lol

I can never participate in threads that ask me to make broad judgements and generalities about large groups of people. I suppose there are some generalities that are true, but I rarely have enough information about all of them to answer in any kind of reasonable way-- I can't tell you why Japanese girls like white guys or if the Japanese value nature... I suppose there are some girls that like caucasians and some that don't, some people that like nature, and others who don't.

I like some white girls... just not the movie "White Girls"

I make geralizations often, oh well its just a forum discussion.

Duo 9 said:

So, what do you like about white girls? lol

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They tend to be more receptive to eating chicken wings & drinking a pitcher of beer at a bar without getting all culturally up-tight about it.

You know, some of them are not really looking for logically derived answers to their questions. They might just wanted to be heard, that's all. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to be a little more sensitive.

Coming to JREF lately, I've found that I can use one answer for most topics, mainly that:
I can make generalisations about the Japanese, but its not going to be accurate or representative of everyone, and in allot of cases it will be the complete opposite. Japanese are human beings, each and every one unique, and what may be true for one person is not going to be true for another. Its no different when we talk about groups of individuals, and unless a trend is followed by an overwhelming majority, you cannot say it holds true for all or is in any shape or form an accurate description.

Yukio_michael, one note, your comparison 'What do you like about white girls' is in some ways a bad comparison as it's a larger group of same skinned women in the world versus the population of 1 country.

Other than that, your post makes a lot of sense.

ewok posted

Its no different when we talk about groups of individuals, and unless a trend is followed by an overwhelming majority, you cannot say it holds true for all or is in any shape or form an accurate description.

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I think often people didn't say it was a clear majority of people acting that way, rather large enough groups to make the behaviour obvious to most people.

gaijinalways said:

Yukio_michael, one note, your comparison 'What do you like about white girls' is in some ways a bad comparison as it's a larger group of same skinned women in the world versus the population of 1 country.

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I wrote something else, but I think I misinterpreted your response... Yes, I think the demographic is wider, and there is a larger representation of psychological profile, as compared to more discreet regions---- Its hard to say--- But still, I would feel silly answering the question, what do you like about [....]...

I suppose my question is "What do you like about Caucasian American Girls..."...? They share similar characteristics, but, my point was that when we redefine our questions about race, & depending on specific race, suddenly they seem to become absurd.

godppgo said:

You know, some of them are not really looking for logically derived answers to their questions. They might just wanted to be heard, that's all. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to be a little more sensitive.

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I am quite sensitive... It is my nature, unfortunately... Everyone just wants to be placated, to be told... "The Japanese, her love is an errant thief, and her light snatches from thee unlucky love of these hapless gaijin...". Does that solve anything? Does it help to try to confirm people's fears that a specific race of people are predisposed to being cruel? I'd rather try to make people feel better about themselves in an autonymous way, than to have themselves be judged in their own minds by the actions of race outside of their own. That's just how I feel.

I'm sure if you didn't say it someone else would have, thanks for putting up the thread. So when's this gonna be "sticky"d, haha.

One thing I've seen a number of times is getting into Japan without a bachelor's degree to work for an extended period of time. As far as I'm aware there are only two ways to do this, one is to marry someone who is Japanese, and the other is to be a Japanese person. But I guess this topic is a far more complicated subject than the ones you stated above, lol.

I see Yukio, that makes sense. And yes, the question is pretty irrelevent, though in my opinion there are more similarities in behaviour amongst Japanese than Americans (not to say either group is an all or one, but again this goes back to the collectivist thinking evident in Japan).

Asking about what people like about certain populations will always be open to abuse, yet often there may be some general characteristics (personality, body type, value system, etc..) that will predispose someone to a certain type of person and possibly their society as well.

Great post, good awnsers I can agree with.

Shame I doubt this will see the end of such threads.

Still, they beat worse types of ones such as the Japan Vs Chinese skinhead rant-wars.

gaijinalways said:

I see Yukio, that makes sense. And yes, the question is pretty irrelevant, though in my opinion there are more similarities in behavior amongst Japanese than Americans (not to say either group is an all or one, but again this goes back to the collectivist thinking evident in Japan).

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I very much agree that there are more similarities, but I think this is a result of cultural expectations, cultural mores, there being a more strict expectation to not be the nail that sticks up, which gets hammered down.

I really do love the culture of the Japanese--- but, around Japanese people, I try to avoid thinking "Oh, this person is acting this way because they are Japanese..." I don't like to have a preconceived notion of a way I expect a person to act. If a Japanese person asks me to take off my shoes when I enter their house, I can understand this completely as an aspect of Japanse culture--- but many people do not understand why it is that Japanese people are acustomed to doing this. But as an example, I don't have any personal feelings about the question as to if the Japanese appreciate nature more than I or any other non-Japanese... I don't try to make those types of un-provable comparisons.

Most of the things that I would say I like about the Japanese, are part of the culture of Japan... But I try to keep those two things separate, individuals are not always representatives of societal mores.

Maybe it's that as an American (I use that word without any form of elitism, I realise that there is a South America, I am from the Nothern part...), I'm used to people thinking that our national dish is something like "burgers & fries...". I've heard such even from the Japanese... We talk a lot about pre-conceived notions that the Japanese have about foreigners. I'm not sure if a thread exists, but there should definitely be one dispelling pre-conceived notions about the Japanese.

But as an example, I don't have any personal feelings about the question as to if the Japanese appreciate nature more than I or any other non-Japanese... I don't try to make those types of un-provable comparisons.

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That was the title given for effect....I don't even recall Maciamo pretending to justify the grounds for his hypothesis for this thread, it was just sort of accepted as a precept compared with Europeans that the Japanese have had historically a poetic worshipful attitude towards nature and besides it is different than what has been asked before so why not see what we can learn from this. If you look closely, not surprisingly the majority of responses were actually based on contradicting the assumption that the Japanese people seemed less interested in nature than Europeans.

I'm not particularly critical of anyone especially new to the culture trying to make sense of it through generalization, as long as that person's motives and agenda are clear. Maciamo could initiate a discussion on why Japanese don't speak much better English given all the katakana in the language....that doesn't mean it isn't a total straw man and non-sequiter that would ever occur to a neutral observer and wasn't set up for any other reason than to shoot them off the map for his own therapeutic benefit...

nurizeko said:

Still, they beat worse types of ones such as the Japan Vs Chinese skinhead rant-wars.

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What!? There was a thread on Japanese skinheads? On Chinese skins too!? Must read!!

Karamuucho said:

One thing I've seen a number of times is getting into Japan without a bachelor's degree to work for an extended period of time. As far as I'm aware there are only two ways to do this, one is to marry someone who is Japanese, and the other is to be a Japanese person. But I guess this topic is a far more complicated subject than the ones you stated above, lol.

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That's a different thing all together - anything related to that would be factual, its a yes/no answer based on the official standing of Immigration
(and yes, a Bachelor is required to obtain a visa, or generally 10yrs work experience in the same field, or marriage to a Japanese person).

Yes, I'm talking more about things that are difficult to prove, even from general experience w/ the Japanese... Japan again, is and I'm overly fond of this phrase, an outlier, when it comes to general assumptions about character.

Japan is indeed unique in its public personae, and unique in the level of misunderstanding that comes from this.

I do appreciate that, as a nation which has been the victim of self-imposed isolation, there are always characteristics that are re-enforced and amplified by nature of media and writing--- But we should be careful when talking about any one specific person by using generalizations in order to try to understand their actions.

Elizabeth said:

That was the title given for effect....I don't even recall Maciamo pretending to justify the grounds for his hypothesis for this thread, it was just sort of accepted as a precept compared with Europeans that the Japanese have had historically a poetic worshipful attitude towards nature and besides it is different than what has been asked before so why not see what we can learn from this.

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Perhaps it is a thought experiment, but I tend to avoid those threads. I think, if literature is any indication, many European & American poetic counterparts have dedicated a good deal of writings to the appreciation of nature, and by no means was I trying to lionise Maciamo for any sort of thread concerning the tendencies of the Japanese--- though, I do not always personally agree with his viewpoints on these types of open topics of discussion.

Elizabeth said:

I'm not particularly critical of anyone especially new to the culture trying to make sense of it through generalization, as long as that person's motives and agenda are clear.

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Unfortunately, these generalizations tend to come from second hand foreign sources reporting on so-called Japanese popular culture. A case in point, I very much doubt that people actually do understand what really constitutes Japanese popular culture--- I like to try to re-inform these people, but I think most of the time people would prefer to keep an image of Japan that is contrary to reality, as the perceived image is much more shocking, and therefore, more interesting.

As a comment to the original post.

I think somebody had already made a thread that asked if every topic had been covered already. Lately, I hve seen many threads I see no aportations from like those posted by the opinionated bas... gomen, Yukio-san--- I see, and I don't post as much, that this forum is becoming slowly more girly and vain every time, with lame questions that only work to start a conversation instead of having a educating purpose. I know, i know... they can talk about anything as long as related to Japan, but this topics... I don't even read them.

As a personal comment, I don't know why I like japanese... I just do. And my sister likes french-black man, so... what?

Whats really getting to me is threads that go something along the lines of "I know a Japanese person who xxxxxxx, that means all Japanese people are the same, right???"

Ewok85, just calm down. let people ask whatever they want. I bet you your questions are criticized also by many others.

pinson27 said:

Ewok85, just calm down. let people ask whatever they want. I bet you your questions are criticized also by many others.

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My last question was in January about interviews in Japan, which garnered no criticism, unfortunately. I'm all for asking questions, but in allot of cases Google is the better first stop, and in the rest of the cases ignorance, veined racism or stupidity seems to fuel the questions and uninformed answers.

Sometimes I feel that a lot of people don't start new threads so much to learn things so much as to be reassured in their beliefs and preconceived notions by other foreigners.

Sometimes I feel that a lot of people don't start new threads so much to learn things so much as to be reassured in their beliefs and preconceived notions by other foreigners.

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Yes, that certainly would be true if the preconception is that Japanese still all wear kimonos and samurais still run around cutting off people's heads.

gaijinalways said:

Yes, that certainly would be true if the preconception is that Japanese still all wear kimonos and samurais still run around cutting off people's heads.

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You know, at least in America some people actually do seem to think this.

I remember a speech given at the University of Minnesota some time ago where some big shot in Japan outlined some plan to change all of the phone lines to fiber optics. At the Q & A afterwards, some college student asked, "Well, don't you think that's going to be difficult? I mean, getting people used to the technology?" What hurt the most was that it was asked in earnest.