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Casual or formal?

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dannepenttinen

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Hey

I have been told to learn the formal way of speaking japanese since the beginning (the beginning = about 1 week ago), which, I though, was the way everyone started out. "Alrighty" I thought and kept on the learning process. But just recently I read an article which basically said to diss the formality and go straight for the casual, everyday-kind of language since it is what you will actually use the most.

In the article I found that it is the formal language that contains things like "です" (desu), "ます" (masu), "ました" (mashita), which is the way I have learned so far. Doesn't japanese speakers use these when speaking casually?

And primary: where can I learn the casual way of speaking japanese?

The article: As a Beginner in Japanese, Don't Worry About the Formality ? Fluent in 3 months - Language Hacking and Travel Tips
 
Well, that link's not helping my kneejerk distrust of anybody whose tagline is "difficult thing in very short time!".

It's a lot more complex than just "casual" v. "formal", for a start - it's not an on/off switch, you have a whole spectrum of politeness/formality. Certainly, a beginner does not need to worry about the more complex forms of keigo, but desu/masu is not that formal and is completely appropriate in a wide range of daily situations, depending on who you're speaking to. I even see it in places like game forums, not usually a bastion of politeness, including when people are otherwise peppering their language with slang and smiley faces.

You will have to learn the plain forms soon enough because even when using desu/masu forms you use the plain forms in some sentence patterns. Therefore if you are following along to some beginner's course, just stick with it. The order in which you learn desu/masu versus plain form is not long-term important, provided that you learn and know how and when to use both.
 
The reason why formal teineigo is used is because in masu form, the conjugations are highly regular so to allow a beginner to concentrate on other aspects of Japanese instead of focusing on irregular plain form conjugation. A case of walk before you can run.

書く 書きました 書いた
言う 言いました 言った
泳ぐ 泳ぎました 泳いだ

As you can see, masu form just plays nice where as plain form is not as straightforward. You need to know both anyway but going to plain straightaway is going to distract you more on conjugation.
 
I see, thanks for the answers. I am listening to Pimsleur Comprehensive Japanese audios mostly, and I kinda like it. As for your example Morphling, I have just finished learning hiragana completely and moved on to katakana. Kanji will be the next step for sure.

Will the learning of the masu form also lead up to a better understanding of the more irregular form?
 
Understanding masu form will help you with all plain form conjugations except the command form which generally used in plain form only.

あ い う え お 段
書かない 書いた 書く 書ける 書こう
書きません 書きました 書きます 書けます 書きましょう

Hmm had a mental blank there with Volitional.
 
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Oh, great ! I thought it would be like "starting all over again" more or less. Thanks !
 
Plus for the basic sentence forms where you can use "masu/desu" forms, you can swap in the appropriate plain version without changing the sentence structure, so syntax/sentence patterns learned remain pretty much the same.

がっこう に いきます
がっこう に いく

In some cases you find plain forms in the middle of sentences that end desu/masu. This is normal, and desu/masu forms shouldn't be used in the middle. For example, this sentence pattern is for talking about experiences (I have been to Japan). The only thing that changes between desu/masu and "plain" form is the last verb. (いった = plain past of いく)

にほん に いった こと が あります。
にほん に いった こと が ある。
 
I think it's important to learn both if you want to continue with Japanese for the long-term. The difference between casual and polite Japanese is largely due to the sentence endings as you have made a point of with です, ます and ました. Typically in classes they teach you the formal way first as it can be useful for later learning how to conjugate, and if you visit Japan and don't know anyone, using the polite form is much safer and will avoid offending anyone. There are so many instances though where formal Japanese can be considered "too formal" and a little cold, such as in close friendships. Therefore it's better to learn both and I don't particularly see anything wrong with focusing on the polite form first either. If you want to learn the casual way of speaking Japanese, check out dictionaries to learn the root forms of words which are all written in casual form. In addition to this, making Japanese friends either online or in real life is a great way to practice the casual form. Most anime and dramas will feature characters talking to each other in casual language as well, so try watch some of them to get a feel for what it's like
 
Not strictly correct to call the dictionary or plain form 'casual form' as nekojita has implied, sometimes plain form must be used to be grammatically correct regardless of politeness.
 
komekun said:
I think it's important to learn both if you want to continue with Japanese for the long-term.
Click to expand...

I definitely am.

komekun said:
There are so many instances though where formal Japanese can be considered "too formal" and a little cold, such as in close friendships.
Click to expand...

This was my thought when I made this thread.


Sadly I don't know any japanese speaking people to practice my speaking and listening with. I have one friend, but he lives in Japan. I do watch anime sometimes, but it is too advanced for me right now to actually understand.


Aah... So japanese speakers do mix forms together? Do they actually say "iku", or is it just a short way of typing "ikimasu"?
 
Probably characters in manga/anime use casual form when talking with each others but that is not always the case. For example a young person speaking to master/teacher/old person more likely to use polite language. Casual is more likely used in case of people who knew each others.
 
dannepenttinen said:
Aah... So japanese speakers do mix forms together? Do they actually say "iku", or is it just a short way of typing "ikimasu"?
Click to expand...

Basically in general, with teineigo (aka masu form) only the tail of a sentence expresses politeness. Anything in between generally has to be plain form so it's not really mixing per se, it's a grammatical necessity.

As with Japanese, exceptions a plenty, particularly when honorifics are involved, the next level of politeness.
 

So when speaking in a casual way you still have to end the word (lets use "tabetai" which is the form used in my dictionary) correctly because it is grammatically necessary? Can I use 'tabetai' instead of 'tabemasu', 'tabemashita', 'tabemasen' etc, or would that mess up the sentence?

For example, does this work?: 'kinõ tabetai desu'.

I can ask questions all day long, no problem guys !
 
"Ttabetai" means "to want to eat", not just "to eat". Thus, "tabetai" and "taberu" are not interchangeable.

You'd better not to use "tilde" or "ring" in this forum. It causes mojibake due to character encoding issues. Instead, macron "ō" is used to avoid the problem. My two cents.
 
Hmm try to type Japanese on your phone. It is less unpredictable compared to accented letters.

たべたい's polite teinei form is たべたいです. It doesn't mean to eat, it means 'want to eat' so you can't compare with たべます.
 
Toritoribe said:
You'd better not to use "tilde" or "ring" in this forum. It causes mojibake due to character encoding issues. Instead, macron "ō" is used to avoid the problem. My two cents.
Click to expand...

I couldn't find the "ō" character on my phone, sorry.


Ooh right ! Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee by the time I wrote that. So たべます's casual form is たべる, right?
 
dannepenttinen said:
I couldn't find the "ō" character on my phone, sorry.



Ooh right ! Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee by the time I wrote that. So たべます's casual form is たべる, right?
Click to expand...

Right but it's not 'casual', it's called plain or dictionary form. A lot of books also use this form and they are far from 'casual'.
 
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