-ba ii noni/nara ii noni/-tara ii noni

laurie · 24 Apr 2009

I've heard two different things about these constructions, and I was hoping someone could help clarify them. I've got the part that they all literally mean approximately "it would be good if X (despite Y)".

But then I've heard both that they are usually used to give suggestions with an element of annoyance ("it would be good if you did X, despite the fact that you're doing Y and it's annoying me", i.e. "Do X!") and that they are used to express wishes in general ("it would be good if X happened, despite the fact that it might not", i.e "I wish X").

Are these both correct? Is it all about the context? Does it matter whether you use -ba, nara, or -tara?

So for a typically vague example with the subject omitted: 外で遊べばいいのに. Could that mean both "Go play outside (you're annoying me hanging around in here)!" and "I hope I'll play outside (but maybe I'll have to do something else)."?

Thanks!

Toritoribe · 25 Apr 2009

laurie said:
Are these both correct?

Indeed, those structures could have a nuance of "annoyance," but it's more soft, more likely "I think you'd better to do."

laurie said:
Does it matter whether you use -ba, nara, or -tara?

Basically, no. Those three structures have approximately same meanings. But verbs and i-adjectives can't be used in ならいいのに. This なら is considered a conditional ba-form of nouns/na-adjectives(ば is generally omitted, though).

×外で遊ぶならいいのに（遊ぶ; verb）

もっとおもしろい遊びならいいのに（遊び; noun）
部屋がもっと静かならいいのに（静か; na-adjective）

laurie said:
So for a typically vague example with the subject omitted: 外で遊べばいいのに. Could that mean both "Go play outside (you're annoying me hanging around in here)!" and "I hope I'll play outside (but maybe I'll have to do something else)."?

遊ぶ is a volitional verb, so the doer(player) is not the speaker when it's ommitted. Thus, 外で遊べばいいのに means "I think you/he/she'd better to play outside."

When the verb in the conditional clause is a non-volitional(e.g. state verb, adjective, potential form,,,), the speaker(I) can be the subject.

背が高ければいいのに/背が高かったらいいのに
I wish I were tall (but I'm not).

外で遊べればいいのに/外で遊べたらいいのに
I wish I were able to play outside (but I can't).

This explanation could be also an answer for your second question "Is it all about the context?", I suppose.

Elizabeth · 26 Apr 2009

laurie said:
I've heard two different things about these constructions, and I was hoping someone could help clarify them. I've got the part that they all literally mean approximately "it would be good if X (despite Y)".
But then I've heard both that they are usually used to give suggestions with an element of annoyance ("it would be good if you did X, despite the fact that you're doing Y and it's annoying me", i.e. "Do X!") and that they are used to express wishes in general ("it would be good if X happened, despite the fact that it might not", i.e "I wish X").
Are these both correct? Is it all about the context? Does it matter whether you use -ba, nara, or -tara?
So for a typically vague example with the subject omitted: 外で遊べばいいのに. Could that mean both "Go play outside (you're annoying me hanging around in here)!" and "I hope I'll play outside (but maybe I'll have to do something else)."?
Thanks!

With the main clause omitted, 。。。ばいい・よかったのに is equivalent to a plaintive "If only/ I wish..." I don't notice たら used as much in these types of constructions.

言えばいいのに。。。

電話すればよかったのに。。。

A "のに" clause preceded by たら、えば (although X would happen/would have happened if...(it won't/didn't)...basically "if only...") seems more common with
たら than えば。

もっと練習したら（すれば）、すぐ上手によかったのに。。。
元気だったら、わたしも一緒に遊びに行けたのに。。。

Toritoribe · 26 Apr 2009

When a verb/adjective preceding のに is not いい, i.e., in a common "conditional clause + adversative conjunction" structure, the explanation is far more complicated than いいのに.
(e.g. なら can be used also with verbs/i-adjectives but the meaning is changed compared to when with nouns/na-adjectives...)
Actually, I avoided to explain it...

Elizabeth said:
A "のに" clause preceded by たら、えば (although X would happen/would have happened if...(it won't/didn't)...basically "if only...") seems more common with
たら than えば。

たら tends to be used for speaker's self or with a potential form, just in my opinion.

こっちに来ればいいのに。
I think you'd better to come here.

そっちに行けたらいいのに。
I wish I were able to go there.

空を飛べたらいいのに。
I wish I could fly.

Elizabeth · 26 Apr 2009

Toritoribe said:
When a verb/adjective preceding のに is not いい, i.e., in a common "conditional clause + adversative conjunction" structure, the explanation is far more complicated than いいのに.
(e.g. なら can be used also with verbs/i-adjectives but the meaning is changed compared to when with nouns/na-adjectives...)
Actually, I avoided to explain it...
たら tends to be used for speaker's self or with a potential form, just in my opinion.
こっちに来ればいいのに。
I think you'd better to come here.
そっちに行けたらいいのに。
I wish I were able to go there.
空を飛べたらいいのに。
I wish I could fly.

Ok, Ok...let's switch it around a bit to an example that is generally used in making objective statements of fact, and not when the main clause involves the will of the speaker (or a request, supposition, command, etc).

I'm looking for lower confidence statement than these : 雨になるといいなぁ、雨が降らないかぁ？（降ってくれないかなあ）。 ("Why doesn't it rain ?? I wonder if it will rain ??)

"If only it would rain...."

雨が降ってくれさえすれば。。。
雨が降ってくればいいのに。。。

Thinking about regrets now....

昨日、雨が降ればよかったのに。。。？？

And ば。。のに here is for situations where there was no control by the speaker, and regretful situation occurred.

I think if you want to use ですが、けれど instead of のに it is specific to situations the speaker did some of something but wishes they had done more.
Where you actually had a bit of control, but didn't do enough and thus now regret.

Toritoribe · 26 Apr 2009

Elizabeth said:
And ば。。のに here is for situations where there was no control by the speaker, and regretful situation occurred.

I think if you want to use ですが、けれど instead of のに it is specific to situations the speaker did some of something but wishes they had done more.
Where you actually had a bit of control, but didn't do enough and thus now regret.

Whmmm, it totally seems to depend on the context.

もっと勉強してれば/してたら、合格できたのに。
If I had studied harder, I could have passed the exam.

晴れていれば島が見えるんですが/見えるんですけど。
If it were fine, we could see the island. (= As it's rainy now, we can't see it, I'm afraid.)

"How hard to study" is controllable by the speaker, whereas the weather is not(maybe? ).
Anyway, these adversative conjunction のに/が/けど often have a nuance of regretfulness/apologeticness.

Elizabeth · 26 Apr 2009

Toritoribe said:
Whmmm, it totally seems to depend on the context.
もっと勉強してれば/してたら、合格できたのに。
If I had studied harder, I could have passed the exam.
晴れていれば島が見えるんですが/見えるんですけど。
If it were fine, we could see the island. (= As it's rainy now, we can't see it, I'm afraid.)
"How hard to study" is controllable by the speaker, whereas the weather is not(maybe? ).
Anyway, these adversative conjunction のに/が/けど often have a nuance of regretfulness/apologeticness.

Oh, I see. Thank you ! It's always sweet to realize how much you've been mistaught...
So all these are good then, right ? :?:
どれでもOKですか？

明日、雨が降ればよかったですが
昨日、雨が降ればよかったけど.
昨日、雨が降ればよかったのに

明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいですが
明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいけど
明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいのに

多分、それらは程度（後悔などという気持ちの程度）の差で本質的には違いはない。

「のに」というのは、もう少し強い印象が生まれる？

laurie · 27 Apr 2009

Toritoribe said:
遊ぶ is a volitional verb, so the doer(player) is not the speaker when it's ommitted. Thus, 外で遊べばいいのに means "I think you/he/she'd better to play outside." <clip>

外で遊べればいいのに/外で遊べたらいいのに
I wish I were able to play outside (but I can't).

I think I might understand it a little more now. Would it be true then, that 行けたらいいのに or 行ければいいのに would both mean "I wish [I/you/someone] could go" but 行けばいいのに would be more like "I think you should go"?

...And 行けばいいのに couldn't mean "I think I should go" (because iku is volitional)?
......................................

Hmmm, for なら....
スパットは私の犬ならいいのに。 Does that mean "I think Spot should be my dog (so buy him for me, please)", because to make a sentence meaning "I wish Spot could be my dog (but I know he can't)" you would need some potential-form verb?

maushan3 · 27 Apr 2009

laurie said:
Hmmm, for なら....
スパットは私の犬ならいいのに。 Does that mean "I think Spot should be my dog (so buy him for me, please)", because to make a sentence meaning "I wish Spot could be my dog (but I know he can't)" you would need some potential-form verb?

I don't know much about いいのに but "I wish Spot could be my dog" means:
スパッとは私の犬になるといい！or スパッとは私の犬になればいい。

Mauricio

Toritoribe · 27 Apr 2009

laurie said:
I think I might understand it a little more now. Would it be true then, that 行けたらいいのに or 行ければいいのに would both mean "I wish [I/you/someone] could go" but 行けばいいのに would be more like "I think you should go"?

You got it!
As for 行けばいいのに, even if the doer(goer) isn't "you," the subject can be omitted when it's obvious from the context.

Toritoribe君学校に行きたくないんだって。
(I heard that) Toritoribe doesn't want to go to school.

行けばいいのに。
I think he should go.

laurie said:
And 行けばいいのに couldn't mean "I think I should go" (because iku is volitional)?

Perfect!

laurie said:
Hmmm, for なら....
スパットは私の犬ならいいのに。 Does that mean "I think Spot should be my dog (so buy him for me, please)", because to make a sentence meaning "I wish Spot could be my dog (but I know he can't)" you would need some potential-form verb?

スパットが私の犬ならいいのに。

That means "I wish Spot could/would be my dog." And the "true" meaning of the sentense, "but I know he can't" or "so buy him for me, please," totally depends on the context.

You can consider that "noun/na-adjective + ならいいのに" is same as であればいいのに/だったらいいのに.

スパットが私の犬ならいいのに = スパットが私の犬だったらいいのに
スパットがもっときれいならいいのに = スパットがもっときれいだったらいいのに

Toritoribe · 27 Apr 2009

Elizabeth said:
So all these are good then, right ?
どれでもOKですか？

明日、雨が降ればよかったですが
昨日、雨が降ればよかったけど.
昨日、雨が降ればよかったのに

明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいですが
明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいけど
明日、雨が降れば（降ると）いいのに

多分、それらは程度（後悔などという気持ちの程度）の差で本質的には違いはない。
「のに」というのは、もう少し強い印象が生まれる？

ですね。この中では「のに」が一番強く願望や失望を表すでしょうね。

Ashikaga · 27 Apr 2009

elizabeth said:
明日、雨が降ればよかったですが

これは俺にはちょっと不自然に聞こえます。「明日」( 未来）と「よかった」(過去）の組み合わせかなぁ？
「明日、雨が降ればいいのですが」というのが普通でしょうね。

Elizabeth · 27 Apr 2009

ASHIKAGA said:
これは俺にはちょっと不自然に聞こえます。「明日」( 未来）と「よかった」(過去）の組み合わせかなぁ？
「明日、雨が降ればいいのですが」というのが普通でしょうね。

本当？へへありがとう。この文法から混乱が起こったね。

日本語複文の時間構造構成規則は複雑ですね。

日本語の「たら」の条件形ではタイミングの使い方がちょっと変わりやすいとおもっていた。

普通は、「たら」の条件形を使うなら、主節は、従属節（たら）の次にくるでしょう。
一般的に、それは、どうして「たら」には制限されているのかわからないんですが、「たら。。。よかったのには、けど、が。。。」で終わる文章が含まれていないようです。

すみません。。。ちょっと速く書いたので。。理解してもらえないかも。
それでは、大きな間違いがあったら、気軽に聞いてくださいね！またね！

Toritoribe · 28 Apr 2009

Elizabeth said:
明日、雨が降ればよかったですが

う～ん、最初だけ「明日」になってたのか。

「たら」は比較的、用法の広い条件節です。厄介なのは「動詞/イ形容詞＋なら」のケースでしょうね。

-ba ii noni/nara ii noni/-tara ii noni

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