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Accounts of Enola Gay Crew

I'm with Mike on this - yes, it was a horrible thing to do, but was it right? Compared to the alternative - a large scale land invasion - yes, it was right. If I was able to go back in time and decide whether or not it should happen, I would say yes.

Theres alot people don't know or understand certain factors about this. Hiroshima was chosen as it was a large military city (home to the second general headquarters), non-essential personel had largely been evacuated month earlier.

First Japan was given a chance to a "unconditional surrender" which was later changed to be a "the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces". Failing this the next step was taken.

The alternative would have been far far more horrible. It would have begun with Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu. Starting with heavy naval and aerial attacks followed by land forces moving in and holding territory. From memory the resources on hand by the Allies were about 50 carriers, 800 assorted war ships and 1500 transports. Troops who were already in the Pacific would spearhead the invasion with the troops from the European campaign being transported over to provide reinforcements for the next stage. Would have been around about 3 Corps of ground troops, 100,000's of men.

The enemy they faced was a mixed bag. Around about 200,000 Japanese soldiers were in Kyushu when the surrender was announced, while poorly armed they were willing to fight to the death. Around 5000 planes were at their disposal, which were planned to be used as kamikaze weapons focused on troop ships to severly damage and demoralise their invaders. There were a number of other "special weapons" thought up like mini-subs, small suicide boats and people were trained to strap bombs to their bodies and to throw themselves under tanks. Cilvilians and children were trained to use spears or other basic weapons. The conservative figure given for casualties for the operation is slated to be 125,000 for the Allies, 25% being KIA, the rest wounded, MIA and captured soldiers, and losses for the Japanese estimated to be 5 times this.

Once Kyushu had been taken the focus would have been on Tokyo, Operation Coronet. 2 weeks of endless barrages from Naval vessels and air raids to soften defences and lower moral. This would be followed by 2 invasions on Tokyo, a D-day sized landing would take the eastern side of Tokyo bay and at the same time another group would take Yokosuka port and reinforce with armour. Airstrikes could continue from over 100 carriers offshore and newly captured airbases on Kyushu. Casualties on the Japanese side would have been easily multiple millions of people.

It was expected that the Japanese would surrender after taking Kyushu, but we'll never know will we?
 
German and Japanese Nuclear Weapons of WWII

I was quite pleased when I saw Jeremy Bernstein quoted on this thread. He has written one of the truly excellent books on the history and (likely) progress of German nuclear weapons development in WWII, Hitler's Uranium Club. Bernstein, himself a student of advanced physics, is in general well-equipped to speak on this subject, and his book is particularly notable because it answers one of the most important questions about the German effort. Namely, did Hitler's scientists in fact possess sufficient theoretical knowledge of atomic physics to enable them to develop a working, supercritical detonation, atomic fission warhead?

The answer to that question is---shockingly---a definitive "NO". At least, the answer is no if the Farm Hall recordings are any indication. These recordings were made by British Intelligence, which captured most of the top German nuclear scientists and interred them at a country estate (Farm Hall) immediately after Germany surrendered. The entire place, inside and out, was bugged, and the British were able to listen in on thousands of hours of conversations between top German minds like Werner Heisenberg and, if memory serves, Carl von Weiszacker. These two were by most assessments the main figures in the German effort. I say "effort" rather than "program" because the Nazi bomb---like the rest of the German industrial war effort and like the Nazi Party itself---was subject to the machinations of numerous petty bureaucracies and fiefdoms and all their associated political maneuverings. Thus there were several "centers of gravity" in the scientific effort as well as in the apparently abortive actions taken toward translating theory into industrial reality. For example, I know of at least two (2) major attempts at reactor construction, and it would not surprise me if there were at least several more. The end result was, of course, that much of the German atomic effort was diffused and disjointed; in any case it was never formally, forcefully organized along the American model and was not even as coherent as the two competing Japanese programs, Ni (Japanese Army) and F-Go (Imperial Japanese Navy).

In any case, the Farm Hall recordings show, apparently conclusively, that Heisenberg---without question the top German atomic scientist of WWII---did not understand the "fast neutron reaction" that is necessary for supercritical detonation. Instead, he was comparitively well-versed in the "slow neutron reaction", as found in atomic power plants and "breeder" reactors. This is no doubt the main reason for Germany's fixation with heavy water during the War; Heisenberg and most other German scientists had in mind to construct a breeder reactor moderated by that substance. This was certainly a sound concept, but it was in fact the longest, hardest way around the problem given the technology of the day. While heavy water is certainly a perfectly good moderator, technically it requires a much more complex design than does a reactor that has other material serving as a moderator---such as graphite, which the Americans used in their Y-12 reactor at Oak Ridge, TN.

Heisenberg's idea to construct a heavy water reactor was also undoubtedly influenced by another factor, namely, the work of von Weiszacker, who actually predicted with a high degree of accuracy the nature and properties of the new, artificial element that would be produced by a breeder reactor: plutonium. The Germans would certainly have had far more plutonium than highly enriched uranium on hand had they been successful; perhaps Heisenberg figured that as long as no one was really sure exactly how to make fissionable material detonate, he would have a better chance at success if he simply had larger amounts with which to work. A breeder reactor---such as the Americans constructed at Hanford, Washington---would certainly have provided more material much faster than uranium separators would have. Thus, in the end, it may have been German uncertainty over exactly how to make a fission bomb detonate that led to them choosing the much more difficult water-moderated plutonium reactor route. Much of this is discussed in masterly detail in Thomas Powers' excellent book, Heisenberg's War.

What Powers misses is the aforementioned fact of Heisenberg's lack of knowledge of the fast neutron reaction. Powers wrote his book a scant few years before the release of the top secret, classified Farm Hall recordings. Among other things, on the recordings Heisenberg is heard musing about the American success in producing a fission bomb, and gradually coming to comprehend his own mistakes in his mathematical / physical calculations. Assuming Heisenberg did not successfully hide prior knowledge of the fast neutron reaction---highly unlikely given that virtually every word he and the other scientists said over several months was recorded, and von Weiszacker's papers had already been captured by the OSS at his laboratory in Paris---then it must be concluded that a true German fission bomb was probably impossible during the War.

However, the purported test detonation in East Germany still deserves careful research and scrutiny for several reasons---and here I must state that I am quite disappointed with Bernstein, who in my view on this one issue takes the easy way out and is lazy in his thinking. That he does so is all the more surprising and disappointing given the undeniable excellence of his book. First, even if a true fission bomb was beyond German science in WWII, a dirty bomb was not. We know for a fact that a dirty bomb attack on New York was a cherished dream of a number of Nazi war architects. Plans existed to mount the dirty bomb as a warhead on the next generation of V-2 missiles, which would have had true intercontinental range. (It bears mentioning that the V-2 itself was the highest flying manmade object until the Russians lauched Sputnik in 1957.) I have seen one of the targeting documents myself; it showed concentric circles directly over Manhattan, along with the radius of the projected kill zone. Second, even if the Germans did not understand exactly how to produce a fission detonation, they still knew it required a critical mass and that that could be produced by rapidly ramming together U-235 in a tube. (ie, the "gun-type" atomic bomb, like the American Little Boy and, if it existed, the Japanese genzai bakudan. The gun-type weapon is the easiest type of atomic fission weapon to engineer and to construct.) Just through clumsy trial and error under utterly desperate, end of war conditions, they might have produced a "fizzle"---a very low grade, partially successful detonation, not unlike the Chernobyl disaster. Not much of a bang, relatively speaking, but plenty of hard, "dirty" radiation. On the other hand, they may have been knowingly testing a dirty bomb in keeping with their targeting and missile work. Either way, a German radiological weapon would have been devastating. Not nearly as purely destructive as a fission bomb, but still capable of killing thousands of people in a densely packed urban area such as New York City. It would certainly not have required anything remotely like the industrial capacity of the massive Manhattan Project in order to produce a dirty bomb. The assertion by many scholars that this must be so is a shameful knee-jerk reaction and is in my view lazy thinking. Certainly, we must be careful to avoid groundless speculation in all this. But lesser industrial capacity in and of itself is no guarantee that other nations besides America could not possibly have succeeded in their nuclear quests in World War II. Third, what the Germans did have in WWII was a device that could be applied directly to the process of weapons-grade uranium enrichment/production: the Clusius Tube. One of the really strange things about the whole German bomb effort was the fact that they failed despite having practical (albeit torturously slow) HEU production technology before the war even started! The British MAUD Committee, in fact, actually produced industrial bomb production calculations based on the Clusius Tube, in 1939 (again, per Powers' book). It is a great mystery why the Germans ignored this ready-made solution in favor of the water-moderated plutonium reactor route. Unless, again, their thinking was that they really wanted to go for the gusto and were trying for true mass nuclear production right from the start---as the Americans achieved with their own plutonium bombs by 1945. There is one author, Carter Hydrick, who claims in his book Critical Mass that the Germans in fact did not completely abandon the Clusius Tube technology, and that they still produced a small amount of at least partially-enriched uranium-235. Here I must add that Hydrick's book has been roundly criticized by some pretty reputable people, including John Coster-Mullen (see his review on amazon.com) and Robert Norris. Robert Wilcox has read Hydrick (I have not yet done so) and says that while he is sympathetic to Hydrick's thesis, the book is lacking in documentation. If Germany in fact did manage to make any U-235, it undoubtedly ended up aboard one or more of the German and Japanese submarines that attempted the journey from Germany to Japan during the War. This is a matter of intense and rancorous debate; the standard history is that it was uranium oxide, not U-235, that was in the cargo hold of the last U-Boat that left Germany headed for the Pacific. (This boat was the U-234.) At least one member of the crew of that sub has testified in print that he saw "U-235" written on the uranium canisters, and also that they were lined with gold to prevent a chain reaction. Norris and Coster-Mullen scoff at this because they have examined the production records of the American HEU factories at Oak Ridge (where any German uranium would have been taken after the U-234 was captured in May 1945) and they see no evidence of a spike in production, such as would have resulted from a sudden infusion of German uranium, whether partially enriched or not. However, a certain Major Lansdale, "a notorious old spook" to quote Wilcox, testified in the 2003 History Channel production "Hitler's Last U-Boat" that the German uranium was incorporated into the American production and then into the Little Boy bomb that annihilated Hiroshima.

In any case, we ought not to be too quick to definitively say how far either Japan or Germany got, because there is a lot of documentation that was either destroyed or else remains hidden or classified to this day. What I have posted is a reasonable summary of what has been released to this point into the public domain. But I was completely unaware of the purported German bomb test, I had never before heard about the possible nuclear angle of Unit 731, and I had never before today seen actual photos of the Hungnam zaibatsu installation. Some people on this thread have done some excellent detective work! I look forward to learning much more on this topic, and welcome anyone who honestly wishes to share information and research.
 
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Operation OLYMPIC vs Japan's Ketsu-Go

There have been several excellent studies done regarding the likely outcome of the planned American and Allied amphibious assault against the southernmost Japanese home island of Kyushu. This was Operation OLYMPIC, the first phase of the two-pronged final assault, Operation DOWNFALL (CORONET was the second phase). I recommend Edward Drea's article "Previews of Hell", Allen and Polmar's definitive book, Code Name Downfall, George Feifer's excellent Tennozan: the Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb, and my own book, Endgame: America, Japan, the Bomb, and the Close of the Pacific War.

Japanese troop strength on Kyushu had actually grown to almost 600,000 by July 1945. While it is true that Japan as a whole was starving and sick and that most Japanese industry had long been smashed by B-29s, what resources remained were going almost entirely into the planned suicide defense against OLYMPIC. This was Ketsu-Go, or Operation Decision. Without question, had the Allies and Japan come to blows as originally planned in these two operations, the result would have been the most horrific slaughter of the entire war, even worse than the Eastern Front conflict between Germany and the USSR. Because my time is limited tonight, rather than do additional original writing, I will quote from Endgame, copyright 2001-2002, US Library of Congress, all rights reserved:

The Army and Marine combat troops making the initial landing numbered 340,600. Service and support troops which were to land following the initial waves numbered an additional 218,360, and there would also be 15,770 Navy personnel going ashore to provide support for the Kyushu armada. Navy and Army Air Force personnel pushed the total number involved to 766,700. But even this number does not give a comprehensive picture of just how great an effort OLYMPIC really was. In the Pacific, supply lines were orders of magnitude longer than those in Europe. One author says that for every American soldier in the field in the Pacific theater, there were 19 additional personnel required to put him there and maintain his presence there. If this is an accurate figure, the monstrous logistical nightmare facing the DOWNFALL planners becomes readily apparent. ツ"It is worth notingツ", George Feifer tells us, ツ"that ツ'serving' in 1945 was in most cases quite different from actually fighting. In many historical periods, authentic combat, the real thing, had been a relatively small part of military life, involving far fewer soldiers for far fewer days than the planning of itツ….only the men on (the) outer edges fell to bludgeons, swords, scimitars, and arrows. Technological development further reduced the proportion on the front lines, more sophisticated weapons requiring more personnel to service them. The greater the distance from the fighters' homes at which the battle was fought, the greater the numbers needed for transport, supply, and bookkeepingツ….Thusツ….each man at the front was supported by nineteen others, usually from a considerable distance.ツ" Given this ratio, the strength of the American war economy was truly mind boggling, and the expense of fielding large, technologically sophisticated, mechanized forces all but inconceivable. Despite this, incredibly, according to Leahy's memo, ツ"Economy in the use of time and in money cost is comparatively unimportantツ". What mattered to Truman was that he ツ"make his decisions on the campaign with the purpose of economizing to the maximum extent possible in the loss of American lives.ツ" (This is exactly what one would expect from this combat veteran President. The old artillery captain had seen war first hand less than thirty years before; he had even tried to volunteer for service in World War II and was turned down by General Marshall. Truman was a senator at the time he asked to serve and was quickly put in charge of the US Senate War Investigating Committee, which would go on to save millions of taxpayer dollars by policing against profiteering by weapons contractors.)

Exactly what casualty figures Truman was given at his meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff on June 18 has become a matter of confused debate. The first source of confusion was the previously mentioned communication involving Marshall and MacArthur between June 14 and June 18. Marshall first sent a message to MacArthur on June 16 asking for ツ"the estimate you are using for planning purposes of battle casualties in OLYMPIC up to D + 90.ツ" MacArthur replied that in the first 30 days, he expected that his forces would suffer 50,800 men killed and wounded, another 27,150 in days 30 through 60, and a further 17,100 in days 60 through 90. He added that ツ"the foregoing are estimated total battle casualties from which estimated return to duty numbers are deducted. Not includedツ…are non battle casualties which are estimated at 4200 for each 30 day period.ツ" MacArthur, then, expected that over 100,000 Americans would be killed or wounded in the battle for Kyushu alone. It appears that he did not realize at first just how significant the June 18 meeting would prove to be, because this comparatively blithe reply was immediately questioned by Marshall. On the 18th, just a few hours prior to the meeting, Marshall sent the following to MacArthur: ツ"The President is very much concerned as to the number of casualties we will receive in the OLYMPIC operation. This will be discussed with the President about 3:30 PM today Washington time. Is the estimate given in your (message) of 50,800 for the period of D to D + 30 based on plans for medical installations to be established or is it your best estimate of the casualties you anticipate from the operational viewpoint. Please rush your answer.ツ" MacArthur now tried to spin his earlier estimate by saying it had been ツ"for medical and replacement planning purposesツ" and ツ"a routine reportツ". He added, ツ"The estimate is purely academic and routineツ…It had not come to my prior attention. I do not anticipate such a high rate of loss. I believe the operation presents less hazards of excessive loss than any other that has been suggested and that its decisive effect will eventually save lives by eliminating wasteful operations of a nondecisive character. I regard the operation as the most economical one in effort and lives that is possible. In this respect it must be remembered that the several preceding months will involve practically no losses in ground troops and that sooner or later a decisive ground attack must be made. The hazard and loss will be greatly lessened if an attack is launched from Siberia sufficiently ahead of our target date to commit the enemy to major combat. I most earnestly recommend no change in OLYMPIC. Additional subsidiary attacks will simply build up our final total casualties.ツ"

In addition to MacArthur's estimate, there was at least one other formal report prepared for Truman by the same Joint War Plans Committee that was responsible for the plans for DOWNFALL itself. This was a Top Secret ツ"Memorandum for the President, Subject: Campaign Against Japanツ", dated June 15....It was estimated that in the two invasions, 40,000 Americans would die on the beaches, aboard ships, and further inland. Another 150,000 would be wounded, and 3,500 would go missing in action. The total figure was a staggering 193,500. The report also gave alternate figures for a campaign against Kyushu alone; in this case, 25,000 would die, 105,000 would be wounded, and 2,500 missing. In the worst case scenario, where there would be two Kyushu landings (the initial landing on the southern tip of the island and a second in the north) followed by the final assault on Tokyo, it would be 46,000 dead, 170,000 wounded, and 4,000 missing. It should be added that deaths due to accident and disease were not included in these estimates. Disease was a real possibility with Japan's public health breaking down as its cities burned; there were as many as 13,000,000 survivors of LeMay's ツ"slaughter bombingツ" campaign (as the Japanese termed it) who were now homeless, and in their squatters' lean-tos and general filth, malaria and tuberculosis raged.

Another factor that was sure to drive up the total of dead and maimed Americans was the certainty that a disproportionate number of the OLYMPIC troops would be green rookies. It was common knowledge that many European veterans considered their job finished. Talk among some of them was near mutinous, and besides, under a point system that awarded credit for time served, most of these troops and pilots were long since past the cutoff number for getting out, which was 85. That some of them would be refused their promised exit from the armed services was a foregone conclusion, but many were already heading back to civilian life with the close of the war in Europe, and the Army in particular was loathe to but the brakes on too many of these men. Army planners stated bluntly that the loss of these veterans ツ"would mean loss of lives and battle efficiency.ツ"

Another casualty estimate came from Admiral Leahy. Leahy used the loss rates from the Okinawa invasion to extrapolate figures for the OLYMPIC force. Of the total force, Army, Navy, Marines, and Army Air Forces involved at Okinawa, 12,520 soldiers, sailors, and Marines were killed. 36,631 were wounded, which meant according to American reckoning that they were hurt badly enough to be out of combat for more than a week. These 49,151 casualties were about 35 percent of the total force involved. Assuming the same rate on Kyushu, Leahy's estimate came to more than 250,000, with 65,000 KIA (Killed In Action). This put him somewhat at odds with MacArthur and his claim that Kyushu's much larger setting would allow greater maneuver and thus avoid some of the head on attacks of the Okinawa campaign, though of course MacArthur's figures still predicted horrific casualties. On the other hand, it would be hard to imagine that Japanese defenders would fight less hard or skillfully or fanatically on their home soil than they had at Okinawa, even if the preinvasion bombardment would be orders of magnitude greater. It must be remembered, too, that the Japanese 32nd Army on Okinawa was actually missing about half of its stockpiled ammunition---destroyed in an accidental explosion at a supply dump ---as well as its best unit, the 9th Infantry Division. This force was to have been positioned at the very heart of Japanese defenses on Okinawa, while other units charged the beaches as the Americans were trying to offload their men and equipment. Imperial General Headquarters miscalculated American intentions and in December 1944 sent the 9th Division to Formosa, from where it was to go to the Philippines. As it turned out, this crack 25,000 man unit would spend the rest of the war rotting away on Formosa because the high command feared submarine attack on the 9th's transport ships if they tried to complete their journey. As hard as it is to fathom, Japanese resistance on Okinawa would have been even more formidable if the 32nd Army had not been deprived of these experienced soldiers. Applying the absence of the 9th Division on Okinawa to Leahy's estimates of the casualties on Kyushu, then, means that the awful figures presented to Truman on June 18 were, if anything, probably much too low.

Americans would not be the only ones to die in the orgy of destruction. Japanese losses would be enormous. To continue with the Okinawa comparison, the force defending the 875 square miles of that island, the 32nd Army, was completely destroyed. Over 72,000 soldiers were killed, along with more than 30,000 Okinawans who had either been drafted into the Army or were serving as auxiliaries in one role or another. Only a few hundred were captured alive, many of them months or even years later as they wandered in from the countryside more dead than anything else. The kill ratio, then, was about ten to one. This would mean a minimum of 250,000 dead Japanese on Kyushu, and probably many more than that, given the Japanese buildup, the incredible firepower that America, Britain, and Australia were assembling for OLYMPIC, and the certainty that many Japanese civilians and paramilitaries would have charged into the fray to die ツ"honorablyツ". In fact, Japan was planning to expend all of its remaining military assets against OLYMPIC, except for the defenses of Tokyo itself. Preparations for Ketsu Go (Operation Decision) were well underway. According to American intelligence, American attackers would be faced by 350,000 Japanese troops, not counting huge numbers of paramilitary volksturm-style units whose effectiveness would have varied but who would certainly have caused additional losses. This was the accepted figure on June 18. It was much too low. More and more men and equipment were pouring into Kyushu all the time, even in the face of American air supremacy (which of course destroyed some of these forces and their transportation). Japanese forces on Kyushu actually built up to almost 600,000 troops by late July. On July 29, MacArthur's own intelligence organization, known as G-2, said, ツ"The rate and probable continuity of Japanese reinforcements into the Kyushu area are changing that tactical and strategical situation sharply. At least six (6) additional major units have been picked up in June/July; it is obvious that they are coming in from adjacent areas over lines of communication that have apparently not been seriously affected by air strikes. There is a strong likelihood that additional major units will enter the area before the target date; we are engaged in a race against time by which the ratio of attack effort vis-à-vis defense capacity is perilously balanced. Unless the use of these routes is restricted by air and/or naval actionツ…enemy forces in Southern Kyushu may be still further augmented until our planned local superiority is overcome, and the Japanese will enjoy complete freedom of action in organizing the area and in completing their preparations for defense.ツ" Marshall was so worried by this buildup that he suggested MacArthur consider other landing sites; alternatives proposed in this ツ"eyes onlyツ" message included the city of Sendai, 180 miles north of Tokyo, the town of Ominato, located on Mutsu Bay on the northern tip of Honshu, and Tokyo itself. MacArthur rejected this notion because he felt that American air power would prove decisive against even a large Japanese buildup and in any case felt that taking the southernmost home island was critical because only then could local, land based air power be used in the final assault on Tokyo to the north. It is doubtful MacArthur really had a good grasp of just how many enemy personnel his forces would face. Japan was ツ"systematically mobilizing a vast manpower pool---in addition to its military force---of 13.3 million males aged 15 to 59ツ….Special Guard Forces, made up mostly of men who had some previous military trainingツ…were attached to major units primarily for such non-combat duties as fortification building, transport, and ツ"casualty clearingツ" on the battlefield.ツ" But of course all of these would be expected to fight; every man, woman, and child would be infantry in the end. In fact, Japanese plans were even more explicit than this. On April 20, Imperial Army General Headquarters issued its ツ"Decree of the Homeland Decisive Battleツ", which said in its opening statement, ツ"We shall throw everything conceivable, material and spiritual, into the battle and annihilate the enemy landing force by fierce and bold offensive attacks.ツ" ツ"Everything conceivableツ" would include the last remnants of the Imperial Navy, that is, about 20 destroyers and 40 to 60 fleet submarines, none of them with any more fuel than for a one way ride to glory; 540 five man midget submarines and at least 360 two man midgets; and hundreds of suiciders that were nothing more than warheads mounted on speedboats. (Though of course, all of the seagoing units were really suiciders.) There were even hundreds of suicide divers, whose task was to swim out from their underwater warrens and fling their explosives-laden bodies directly underneath oncoming landing craft. From the skies would come as many as 10,500 kamikazes who would expend all of their strength over the first ten days of battle. That Japan was husbanding its last ergs of strength for the OLYMPIC assault is evidenced by the fact that during the combined air and battleship bombardments of July and August, 1945, the Japanese rarely even tried to mount any effective naval or air opposition, not even kamikazes.

The entire strategy from top to bottom was, in fact, suicide by Western standards, but according to Major General Masakazu Amano, chief of the Army operations section at Imperial General Headquarters, ツ"ツ…we were absolutely sure of victory. It was the first and only battle in which the main strength of the air, land, and sea forces were to be joined. The geographical advantages of the homeland were to be utilized to the highest degree, the enemy was to be crushed, and we were confident that the battle would prove to be the turning point in political maneuvering.ツ" A July 1945 IGHQ memo reflected this thinking, stating hopefully that Japan's last throw of the dice would produce at least a million US casualties---even if it cost an equal or greater number of Japanese. The hoped for result would be ツ"public opinion in America (becoming) inclined towards peaceツ…with comparatively advantageous conditions.ツ"

In other words, the Japanese plan was to force a favorable negotiated peace on Japanese terms, and any amount of bloodshed was simply the necessary price.

In a footnote, I added the following, which in my view is much the more likely outcome:

The figure of 250,000 Japanese dead is based on the low end Joint Chiefs estimate of 25,000 American combat deaths, times ten, again using the approximate Okinawa kill ratio of ten to one extrapolated onto the Kyushu landing. However, the following factors must be kept in mind when calculating likely OLYMPIC-Ketsu Go casualties. First, the JCS figure was based on the assumption that opposing Japanese forces would number 350,000, when in reality they would have been nearly twice that size, not counting air and sea kamikaze, quasi-military, and nominally civilian assets. Second, very few Japanese, especially regular Army and especially on their home ground, would ever have surrendered or been captured alive. Third, American and Allied supporting firepower (especially naval and air) would have been the very greatest possible within the framework of existing technology and logistics. There were also contingency plans to employ poison gas, especially if IGHQ had resorted to such weapons. (See Allen and Polmar, 172-191.) All in all, the real figures would certainly have amounted to better than 500,000 Japanese killed in action, and American casualties would also have been much worse than the JCS predicted.

With all of this taken into account, I don't know how anyone can argue that the atomic bombings were not the fastest and most humane (in terms of lives lost) means of ending the War. --- WJP
 
Correction Re: German-Japanese Atomic Bomb

I am going to go ahead and add this factual correction to my earlier post regarding the WWII German and Japanese atomic bomb projects. I'm doing this as an additional post rather than as an edit to the original because for some reason the "Edit Post" button refuses to come up no matter how many times I log in or refresh the page! :banghead:
Anyway, the graphite-moderated reactor the Americans built at Oak Ridge was the X-10, not the Y-12 as I had indicated. Y-12 was the designation for the electromagnetic uranium separation plant. Apologies for any confusion.
 
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edits are only available within (I think) 24 hours of the time you post, which is why you weren't able to change a 4 month old post. Considering how long your mistake went unnoticed let alone responded to, I think you could consider yourself "in the clear" on this one
 
Thanks!

I much appreciate that, Gaijin, and by the way, cool cat you have there! I just wanted to be sure I had everything factually correct, in particular because there are those in the politically-charged atmosphere of atomic scholarship who would try to make great hay from any error, no matter how small or benign it might be. Plus, it's just good policy for any scholar. But again, thanks for the kind words!
 
Sorry to be on your back about this mikecash. Could go into further detail about how, you feel that the dropping of the atomic bomb, can be justified
 
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dangdaga said:
Sorry to be on your back about this mikecash. Could go into further detail about how, you feel that the dropping of the atomic bomb, can be justified

Do you mean to ask me how I think it can be justified? Or how I think there are many Japanese alive today who owe their lives to the atomic bombs? Or how I think the atomic bombs turned out to be a huge favor to the nation of Japan?
 
dangdaga said:
Sorry to be on your back about this mikecash. Could go into further detail about how, you feel that the dropping of the atomic bomb, can be justified

Are you asking Mikecash to justify the act, based on the moralistic outlook of 2006 ... or the morals, outlook and historical perspective of 1945?

There are differences ....

ニ淡ニ停?。ニ停?
 
I think dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was probably justified, mostly due to the only real alternative of actually landing in and invading Japan.

HOWEVER, dropping the bomb on Nagasaki could have at least waited. Furthermore, if a bomb was to be dropped anywhere, Nagasaki really probably wasn't the best target as it was not the industrial center it has sometimes been claimed to be. I also find it interesting that Nagasaki was in fact home to much of Japan's limited Christian population of the time (which was then largely wiped out thanks to the bomb).

The main thing is though, the U.S. did not wait for a response to Hiroshima before dropping the bomb on Nagasaki, it came TOO SOON after. With the slightest bit of negotiation, Nagasaki MIGHT (though I suppose we don't know for sure; a lot of generals still wanted to fight after the both bombs were dropped, though a lot of politicians did not) have been totally unnecessary for the surrender of Japan. If not, however, then the U.S. would still have that second bomb ready to use.
 
Interesting thread, war is cruel and unforgiving. Dropping the bombs saved having to invade mainland Japan. Now compared to the uranium waste enriched bombs dropped in Iraq by the US (with the full knowledge of what radiation does avaiable), the former event seems like a worse crime, as what did the Iraqis do to us (besides invading one of our oil sorces, Kuwait, that is)?
 
gaijinalways said:
as what did the Iraqis do to us (besides invading one of our oil sorces, Kuwait, that is)?

Exactly....

EDIT: Ye, Bush basically wants to help his rich buddies....
 
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All wars are crimes, if you were ordered to shoot someone in the head, and followed your superior's orders, does it matter if you were American, German, Italian, British, Russian, or Japanese? It is always difficult to justify war, but making an example of the use of atomic bombs is not very logical. They[nuclear weapons] are just another step in the evolution of weapons, just as spears, swords, metal armor, and guns were. The argument would be similar to saying that if everyone in the world used swords and metal armor to fight, and you had a gun and some grenades, that you are a war criminal but they are not.
 
Muskets and Armor have never blow up a quarter of a Million people....
 
I think the timing of the second bomb was meant to communicate to Japan that we had a lot of these things and we could keep dropping them every week if necessary.
 
Ost Prussia said:
Muskets and Armor have never blow up a quarter of a Million people....

Not all at once, no.

(So who uses muskets anymore?)
 
at first,Japan succeeded in the development of the atomic bomb earlier than the United States.
The emperor did not grant the permission of the manufacturing.
He said "I do not want to win a war after that manner."
 
caster51 said:
at first,Japan succeeded in the development of the atomic bomb earlier than the United States.
The emperor did not grant the permission of the manufacturing.
He said "I do not want to win a war after that manner."

You're delusional.
 
You're delusional.
I think you dont know at all .
you are a fool
there was already uranium to make A-Bomd in Japan before WW2 by Kodama organs
The WWII era was a time of tremendous change, conflict, fear, prejudice, hatred, and anger. The initial research of the atomic bomb began before the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese on Dec
.
http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/atomicamerica/00-01-04.htm
Yoshio Kodama - Wikipedia
kodama organ
児玉誉士夫 - Wikipedia

Japan started the research of an atomic bomb earlier than the United States
It had been completed before the end of the war.
then one general asked Emperor " we are ready to make A-bomd for victory......."
Emperor said
"Man not only dies but also the plant doesn't grow either. Japan need not win a war by using such frightening arms." then Japan gave up to make that
Tojo said
窶愬椎セナ?ナステア窶佛?窶堙債、窶「テ??ーツコ窶堙娯?堋イヒ?毒スv窶堙俄?敖ス窶堋キ窶堙ゥ窶堋ア窶堙??堙坂?堙??堋ォ窶堙遺?堋「窶堙??堋「窶堋、窶堋ア窶堙??堙??堋?窶堙≫?堋ス窶堋ェツ、ナスツゥ窶「ツェ窶堙??堋オ窶堙??堙坂?捏ツ静ュ窶堙??堙遺?堙ェ窶堙寂?愿コ窶怒窶堋ェ窶禿??堙鯛?堙??堋オ窶堙懌?堋「ナ陳ウ窶堙?ナスq窶堙?窶堙遺?堋ュ窶堙遺?堙ゥ窶堙?考窶堋ヲツ、ツ青サ窶伉「窶伉」ツ進窶堙ーナステ・窶卍」窶堋オヒ?毒陳ゥ窶堋ェツ湘補?愿銀?堋オ窶堋スツ。ナスQ窶電窶伉坂?卍キ窶堙娯?板ァツ湘ェ窶堙俄?堋?窶堙ゥナステ停?堙??堋オ窶堙?、窶愿コ窶怒窶堙ー窶捏ツ静ュ窶堙俄?慊ア窶堋ュ窶堋ア窶堙??堙坂?堙??堋ォ窶堙遺?堋「ツ。ツ静ュ窶侏??堙??堙最停?ケ窶ーテ岩?堙俄?堋ィ窶堋「窶堙?焦ク窶藩懌?堙ー窶慊セ窶堙ゥ窶堋ア窶堙??堋ェナ?テ娯?牌窶堙??堋?窶堙ィツ、ツ債。窶堙娯?愿コ窶怒窶堙最スティ窶冓窶堙ー窶ー]ツ々窶堙??堋ォ窶堙ゥ窶堙??堋ォ窶堙??堙坂?堙遺?堋「ツ。ツ焦ク窶堙??堙寂?「テ??ーツコ窶堙俄?堋ィナ?テャ窶堙鯛?堋「窶堋ス窶堋セ窶堋ッ窶堙ゥ窶堙架?。窶堋「窶堙遺?堋「
http://echoo.yubitoma.or.jp/weblog/ys716/eid/43657
It is very famous though this is a secret story.
 
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Has anyone heard about how the dropping affected the Enola Gay crew's psyche? My father used to tell me stories of some of them going absolutely crazy because of remorse - one of them was supposed to go wacko and started living on a tree. I can't find (no wonder) anything about that in the internet. i mean, there were only people and the dropping must have had a devastating effect on some of them..
 

I once knew a girl who said her father told her the Japanese use snake urine for salad dressing.
 

Stories to this effect have been told down through the years, but if there were any crewmen from the 509th Composite Group who "went crazy because of remorse", I am not aware of them. No doubt some had considerable regret, but clinical insanity? None of whom I am aware.
 
WWII German Nuclear Weapon R&D and Whether It Went to Japan

Regarding my posts from several years ago having to do with German progress toward working nuclear weapons, documents have surfaced that call into question exactly what Heisenberg knew. The most incriminating of these, in my view, was a KGB report dug up by Rainer Karlsch that was included in his (often criticized) book, Hitler's Bombe. It turns out that the KGB, apparently alone among Allied intelligence services, was able to penetrate an otherwise previously-unknown-in-the-West, 1942 meeting of Heisenberg's "uranium club": the Harnack Haus conference. At this gathering, Heisenberg very definitely showed accurate knowledge of the size of the nominal or natural U235 critical mass. He stated that it would be "about the size of a pineapple", and it is likely that he knew this from the work of another German scientist, Fritz Houtermanns. According to the sources I have read, Houtermanns' calculations about the critical mass, which were circulated among many top German scientists in a paper he wrote on the subject, were actually more accurate than those which were used by the Manhattan Project.


All of which leads inevitably to the conclusion that many of the German scientists interred by the British at Farm Hall were not forthcoming about how much they knew. They suspected, correctly, that they were being tape recorded and so they did everything that they could to throw the Allies off. This of course flies in the face of those who wish to view Heisenberg as some sort of civil disobedience, passive-resistance leader when he was nothing of the sort. At best, he was ambivalent about the Nazis, but as a German nationalist he was certainly willing to work on the bomb for the sake of his country. In this he was typical of many scientists involved in the war effort on both sides.


But there is more. As documented before Karlsch by David Irving---a historian whose Nazi sympathies have made him persona non grata but who nevertheless has done important work---there was another, "more empirical" German atomic bomb project during WWII. This was the German Army's effort done by the "heereswaffenampt" advanced weapons bureau under the direction of Professor Kurt Diebner. Irving's book, The Virus House, agrees with Karlsch that it was Diebner's project that came closest to producing a working weapon. (The strange title of Irving's book comes from his claim that the Germans tried to conceal Diebner's work by referring to it in official documents as some kind of medical research that was being done in a "virus house".) Karlsch believes the Germans actually test-fired at least three devices of some kind, with two of these tests taking place in 1944 and the third in 1945. Karlsch's occasional US research partner, Mark Walker of Union College, sides with Irving in that he doesn't believe the Germans succeeded. Karlsch does, or at least, believes that some kind of weapon was successfully tested; Karlsch does not say definitively that this was an actual fission bomb in the same sense that the US bombs were. It seems that the Diebner group was trying some sort of "hybrid" approach that utilized aspects of both fission and fusion in some combination. There is at least one article available in the public domain (which I have found on the internet) in which Karlsch refers to the allegedly successful German tests as "atomic grenades"---which means their explosive yield was much less than that produced by the Manhattan Project. The Manhattan Project's somewhat arbitrary but still useful definition of a "true nuclear bomb" was one that went kaboom with the TNT equivalent of half a kiloton or more. An "atomic grenade", then, may have been smaller than half a kiloton. This would still have been far more powerful than any "conventional" or chemical explosive fielded during WWII, so the term is a bit misleading. But I mention it here for the sake of accuracy regarding Karlsch's claims. (Karlsch may or may not have had the Manhattan Project's "true bomb threshold" in mind when he was talking about "atomic grenades". It does appear, however, that he believes that the German detonations, if successful, were significantly smaller than those produced by the American bombs.)


In any case, the question then becomes, did any of this more-advanced-than-expected German R&D make its way to Japan during the war years? Interestingly, this may be a purely academic consideration because even with the Diebner work, a strong argument can be made that Japan's nuclear weapon R&D was still better than Germany's (!!). It is well documented even in adversarial sources on the subject that the Japanese were going for the gusto right from the beginning: they had in mind a true fission bomb with a yield of at least 20 kilotons. But there is more to be found here. Of that you can be sure.
 
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