A couple of questions

KrazyKat · 6 Feb 2006

Hi everyone, I've got a couple of things here I just couldn't seem to work out.

First is the use of the nonpast tense used when telling events that happened in the past. Here is an example of what I am talking about:

ランプに似た燭台を机のうえにおく。さらに水の入った桶をおいた。

Could someone please help explain why the first oku is not in the past and what the significance of this is?

The second problem I have is with the volitional + to suru form. Normally I don't have a problem with this. However I have seen this used when it doesn't seem possible for something to be 'trying':

森にいま地表は静かに覆われようとしていた。

This one's from memory so it might not be right:
二ヶ月が過ぎようとした

(also is sugiru transitive or intransitive i'm getting a bit confused there)

Thanks for any help!

Elizabeth · 6 Feb 2006

Hi everyone, I've got a couple of things here I just couldn't seem to work out.
First is the use of the nonpast tense used when telling events that happened in the past. Here is an example of what I am talking about:
ランプに似た燭台を机のうえにおく。さらに水の入った桶をおいた。
Could someone please help explain why the first oku is not in the past and what the significance of this is?

I can't say whether this is natural or not, but based on the rest of the passage what exactly has happened in the past to make the oku strange ?

The second problem I have is with the volitional + to suru form. Normally I don't have a problem with this. However I have seen this used when it doesn't seem possible for something to be 'trying':
森にいま地表は静かに覆われようとしていた。

The surface of the earth had been trying to restore itself to a more natural state of forestation, maybe ? It's difficult to say properly in Japanese with a more limited use of reflexive pronouns compared with English.

This one's from memory so it might not be right:
二ヶ月が過ぎようとした
(also is sugiru transitive or intransitive I'm getting a bit confused there)
Thanks for any help!

I believe sugiru is always the intransitive form. This may be a wild guess but looks to me like "after two months had passed" in the context of something happening at the end of "two months having passed....".

KrazyKat · 6 Feb 2006

Elizabeth said:
I can't say whether this is natural or not, but based on the rest of the passage what exactly has happened in the past to make the oku strange ?

I understood it as she put the candle on the table and then put the bucket on the table. Both sentences happened in the past and yet in the japanese the first isn't in the past tense. I was thinking along the lines of maybe the action wasn't complete at that point in the story and actually both objects were put down at the same time? So it couldn't used oita since that would imply the candle was put down first? Perhaps?

I wouldn't call it strange because a lot of actions in a passage written in the past seem to use this nonpast tense, I just don't understand why they do. :?

Elizabeth said:
The surface of the earth had been trying to restore itself to a more natural state of forestation, maybe ? It's difficult to say properly in Japanese with a more limited use of reflexive pronouns compared with English.

Thanks, I can see that one now.

Elizabeth said:
I believe sugiru is always the intransitive form. This may be a wild guess but looks to me like "after two months had passed" in the context of something happening at the end of "two months having passed...." :?

I thought sugiru is intransitive too, but then get confused when I see it take a direct object:
１１時を過ぎると

The translations you gave fit, however, I don't see why (or how) the sentence used 'you to shita' and not just sugita.

Elizabeth · 6 Feb 2006

I understood it as she put the candle on the table and then put the bucket on the table. Both sentences happened in the past and yet in the japanese the first isn't in the past tense. I was thinking along the lines of maybe the action wasn't complete at that point in the story and actually both objects were put down at the same time? So it couldn't used oita since that would imply the candle was put down first? Perhaps?
I wouldn't call it strange because a lot of actions in a passage written in the past seem to use this nonpast tense, I just don't understand why they do. :?

It would also make sense if this were a sequence of two actions first involving the candle then the bucket that has just gotten split up into two sentences.

I thought sugiru is intransitive too, but then get confused when I see it take a direct object:
１１時を過ぎると
The translations you gave fit, however, I don't see why (or how) the sentence used 'you to shita' and not just sugita.

There are special cases of this happening with other 'pseudo-transitive' verbs as well, like "川を泳ぎます"、"公園を歩きます" which have a weird sort of in between status even to grammarians. The best thing to do I suppose is just think of １１時を過ぎると as a little past 11, not that as 11 having past itself.
As for "you to shita" perhaps it implies the time has passed in a certain way or has other subjective qualities attached to it ? For instance, it has only tried to pass and therefore has ended up doing a damn slow or incomplete job of it. How natural all these wild suppositions and assumptions turn out to be is anyone's guess at this point.

Mike Cash · 6 Feb 2006

Though it sounds odd to our ears, time is often expressed with the volitional. NHK radio announcers when giving time signals often say things like 4時になろうとしています instead of 4時になります as we might think more natural.

Elizabeth · 6 Feb 2006

Mike Cash said:
Though it sounds odd to our ears, time is often expressed with the volitional. NHK radio announcers when giving time signals often say things like 4時になろうとしています instead of 4時になります as we might think more natural.

"You to shite iru" used intransitively then doesn't signify a failured effort, or trying without success ("to shita ga" in contrast to "mimashita")....or so at least it would appear from these examples.

KrazyKat · 6 Feb 2006

Thanks for your help so far.
It does seem so strange to use the volitional for passage of time! Is this only used in certain situations?
I'm still lost on the use of the nonpast though. Here's another example:
(Context: girl is watching some kind of illusion)
陽子は思わず叫んだ。
叫んだとたんに風景が途切れる。ふと我に返ったように...
So why togireru not togireta? I'm sure i'm just missing something really simple here. I'm sure would use the past to translate, it wouldn't we?

Acually, here's an even better example:
もう影は見えなかった。水の音も聞こえない。
I don't understand how these can be in different tenses?

Elizabeth · 6 Feb 2006

Thanks for your help so far.
It does seem so strange to use the volitional for passage of time! Is this only used in certain situations?
I'm still lost on the use of the nonpast though. Here's another example:
(Context: girl is watching some kind of illusion)
陽子は思わず叫んだ。
叫んだとたんに風景が途切れる。ふと我に返ったように...
So why togireru not togireta? I'm sure i'm just missing something really simple here. I'm sure would use the past to translate, it wouldn't we?

叫んだ is probably in the past to show something has already happened before the scenery can pause or be interrupted. It's like 京都に行ったときに、写真
をたくさん撮ります。京都に行くときに I don't think is correct (at least for something that isn't a regular occurance) because it would have you taking pictures before having arrived. At least that was the perfectly reasonable classroom explanation...there are obviously a lot of exceptions in Japanese.

Acually, here's an even better example:
もう影は見えなかった。水の音も聞こえない。
I don't understand how these can be in different tenses?

The shadow was no longer visible. I also can't hear the sound of water.
Sounds OK to me.

Mikawa Ossan · 6 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
It does seem so strange to use the volitional for passage of time! Is this only used in certain situations?

You can think of it as an anthropomorphic use of the volitional case. Other possible examples:

授業が終わろうとしているところだった。突然、叫び声が聞こえてきた。

昨日、ビデオをデッキに入れて、再生ボットンを押した。プレビューを嫌々しながら我慢して映画を待っていた。そしたらその待ちかねた映画が始まろうとしたら、停電してしまった。

Aという町の周りは1年前まで、ぜんぶ森林であった。ところが、農業開発の急速増加の結果、現在田んぼがその町を覆うとしているようになってきた。

I'm still lost on the use of the nonpast though. Here's another example:
(Context: girl is watching some kind of illusion)
陽子は思わず叫んだ。
叫んだとたんに風景が途切れる。ふと我に返ったように...
So why togireru not togireta? I'm sure i'm just missing something really simple here. I'm sure would use the past to translate, it wouldn't we?
Actually, here's an even better example:
もう影は見えなかった。水の音も聞こえない。

Think of it as a kind of dramatic device. The first sentence sets the scene. Then the second one draws you into the "action" by using present tense to make it more immediate.

GoldCoinLover · 6 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
Hi everyone, I've got a couple of things here I just couldn't seem to work out.
First is the use of the nonpast tense used when telling events that happened in the past. Here is an example of what I am talking about:
ランプに似た燭台を机のうえにおく。さらに水の入った桶をおいた。
Could someone please help explain why the first oku is not in the past and what the significance of this is?
The second problem I have is with the volitional + to suru form. Normally I don't have a problem with this. However I have seen this used when it doesn't seem possible for something to be 'trying':
森にいま地表は静かに覆われようとしていた。
This one's from memory so it might not be right:
二ヶ月が過ぎようとした
(also is sugiru transitive or intransitive i'm getting a bit confused there)
Thanks for any help!

I believe in past adjectives (i.e okii being big, past tense) you drop the 'i' and add 'ku' in some cases.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Thanks

cheapshot · 6 Feb 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
I believe in past adjectives (i.e okii being big, past tense) you drop the 'i' and add 'ku' in some cases.
If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
Thanks

i think you are slightly wrong dude..

大きい becomes 大きかった in the plain past form...

寒い - 寒かった
小さい - 小さかった
古い - 古かった

etc etc...

KrazyKat · 6 Feb 2006

What you are thinking about here, GCL, is making negatives.

samui - samuku arimasen - not cold
furui - furuku arimasen - not old

KrazyKat · 6 Feb 2006

back on topic, thanks for you help everyone. I think I might be beginning to get it. I think the problem is that I can't see how what seems to me to be a series of actions can be partly in the past tense and partly in the present tense. If I was writing it I would want to put all of the sentences into the past.

Mike Cash · 6 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
back on topic, thanks for you help everyone. I think I might be beginning to get it. I think the problem is that I can't see how what seems to me to be a series of actions can be partly in the past tense and partly in the present tense. If I was writing it I would want to put all of the sentences into the past.

We do it all the time in English too, though perhaps it is more common in speech than in writing. You've just never noticed it before.

Elizabeth · 6 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
What you are thinking about here, GCL, is making negatives.
samui - samuku arimasen - not cold
furui - furuku arimasen - not old

And it isn't only for negatives either. たとえば、
今日はここは３０度もあって、寒くぐらいです。明日も寒くなるそうです。暖かくしたいのよ！
:cold:

McCrutch67 · 7 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
ランプに似た燭台

Doesn't this mean "the candle that looked like a lamp?"
I thought that when a past tense verb came before a noun it described it as one that had done something or had had something done to it. But it seems like I'm wrong because nobody has said it. Is it?

KrazyKat · 7 Feb 2006

McCrutch67 said:
Doesn't this mean "the candle that looked like a lamp?"
I thought that when a past tense verb came before a noun it described it as one that had done something or had had something done to it. But it seems like I'm wrong because nobody has said it. Is it? :?

ランプに似た燭台 candle resembling a lamp
曲がった道 a winding road

I think the past tense is used here with verbs like this to describe states or something. I don't really understand myself, I just kind of accepted this. Maybe someone else knows why they do this? I think its always 'nita something' though and not niru or niteiru.

Elizabeth · 7 Feb 2006

KrazyKat said:
ランプに似た燭台 candle resembling a lamp
曲がった道 a winding road
I think the past tense is used here with verbs like this to describe states or something. I don't really understand myself, I just kind of accepted this. Maybe someone else knows why they do this? I think its always 'nita something' though and not niru or niteiru.

That's the only way I have ever found it also. If you were going to use Nite iru
it would be the candle resembles the lamp. Something like such
燭台はランプに（とても）よく。。。）似ている。

Glenn · 7 Feb 2006

I thought volitional + to suru also had the meaning of "about to..." So, 森にいま地表は静かに覆われようとしていた would be "the surface of the earth in the forest was about to be covered in silence just now."

四時になろうとしています -- "It's about to be four o'clock."

However, I can't find it as being explained that way in any of my books right now, so I'm not sure where I got that from. At any rate, it explains the strange uses nicely.

Mikawa Ossan · 20 Feb 2006

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I came across this sentence today, and I immediately thought of this thread. The author is talking about the aftermath of the Trojan War.

戦争の結果、大陸ではまだペルシャの勢力は強かったものの、地中海は次第にギリシャ人の海になろうとした。

「天皇日本の成り立ち」三浦朱門作

A couple of questions

先輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

先輩

先輩

いかんわ！

後輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

一切皆苦

いかんわ！

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