要びます?要ばせます?

TGO · 23 Jun 2006

Hi minna-san, I have some questions regarding a certain verb conjugation (if this is the right word), sorry if my question is not phrased clearly, since I dun really know the exact terms used to call the conjugation from 遊びます to 遊ばせます. Anyway,

私は娘を自由に遊ばせます。
朝は忙しいですから、娘に朝ごはんの準備を手伝わせます。

The first example employs the particle に before 遊ばせます while を is used after 手伝わせます. From what I know に is used for 自動詞 while を is used for 他動詞. What I don't understand is why 遊びます is considered as a 自動詞. shouldn't it be a 他動詞? I dun really understand how to use this pattern, please enlighten me, doumo arigatou ^^

Glenn · 23 Jun 2006

Need a word or phrase translated? | Page 136 | Japan Forum

The (s)ase-ru form is called the causative form. 遊ぶ is an intransitive verb because it doesn't take an object. I actually didn't realize this until you posted it, though, but now that I think about it I can't recall having ever come across 何々を遊びます.

However, when you make a verb causative it becomes transitive, so you can use を. In fact, when you make an intransitive verb causative and you use を to mark the patient role (at least I believe it's the patient role; someone correct me on that if I'm wrong) it has a sense of coercion, and it gets translated as "make someone do something," but when に is used, that sense is lost and it gets translated as "let someone do something." For transitive verbs, however, when you make them causative you have to mark the patient role with に no matter the interpretation, due to the double-o constraint.

So, the first sentence you have is kind of weird to me, because it looks like "I make my daughter play freely." It employs に as an adverbial marker, by the way. That's independent of what kind of verb is used.

Glenn · 23 Jun 2006

Someone please let me know where that link takes them. For someone reason it isn't going where it's supposed to when I click on it either in Firefox or Safari, and I have no idea why.

Cue · 23 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
Someone please let me know where that link takes them. For someone reason it isn't going where it's supposed to when I click on it either in Firefox or Safari, and I have no idea why.

It led me to this post.

Glenn said:
皆さん is read みなさん. I guess by itself it could be read みんな, but that reading isn't listed in the 新漢語林 (Shin Kangorin), although they also don't have きく as a reading for 訊, so I'm not so sure how common it is for Japanese people to see 皆 and say みんな.

Japanese people don't say みんなさん. It's either みなさん or みんな (although I suppose みな on its own is fine too).

[Disclaimer] Every time I post the above information somewhere, some non-Japanese person seems to tell me that it's wrong, only to have Japanese people say "no, we don't say みんなさん." I'm just saying this now so that I can avoid the argument yet again.

Is that what you intended?
By the way, I'm using IE.

Q

Glenn · 23 Jun 2006

Alright, thanks. That's what I intended. Although I'm still not clear on why I'm not taken there when I click on it.

undrentide · 23 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
The (s)ase-ru form is called the causative form. 遊ぶ is an intransitive verb because it doesn't take an object. I actually didn't realize this until you posted it, though, but now that I think about it I can't recall having ever come across 何々を遊びます.

Yes, 遊ぶ is an intransitive verb, therefore when we play something it is always 何々で遊ぶ. 何々 is not an object of the verb.

Glenn said:
However, when you make a verb causative it becomes transitive, so you can use を. In fact, when you make an intransitive verb causative and you use を to mark the patient role (at least I believe it's the patient role; someone correct me on that if I'm wrong) it has a sense of coercion, and it gets translated as "make someone do something," but when に is used, that sense is lost and it gets translated as "let someone do something." For transitive verbs, however, when you make them causative you have to mark the patient role with に no matter the interpretation, due to the double-o constraint.

Hmmm, I think it is not で or に which determine whether the meaning is "to make someone do something", or "to let someone do something". It could be either, and from the context one can see whether it is "make" or "let".

Glenn said:
So, the first sentence you have is kind of wierd to me, because it looks like "I make my daughter play freely." It employs に as an adverbial marker, by the way. That's independent of what kind of verb is used.

私は娘を自由に遊ばせます。
To me, this sentence is translated as "I let her play freely".
It is the word 自由に that makes me feel so.

If it is
私は娘を公園で遊ばせます。
then it could be either of them depending on the context;
1. I let her play in the park (as she wants to play outside)
2. I make her play in the park (though she wants to play somewhere else)

娘に朝ごはんの準備を手伝わせます。
This also could be
1. I let her help with the preparation of breakfast (because she always likes cooking)
2. I make her help with the preparation of breakfast (though she does not like cooking)
though from the context I feel 2 is more likely. ;-)

Glenn · 23 Jun 2006

Yeah, I felt that the first 1 and the second 2 were the correct interpretations, but I remember being taught about the coercive interpretation as I described above, so I started to wonder. Of course, I'm still wondering why it was explained that way to me.

TGO · 23 Jun 2006

Thanks everyone for replying!! Actually I got the 2 examples from my textbook, unfortunately it's written in Chinese so I have some difficulty trying to interprete it, not that I dun understand Chinese, let's just say the explanation wasn't clear enough. For example, from what I understand from my textbook, it seems to be saying that in the causative form there is no clear distinction between letting someone do something or actually making someone do something.

For instance, 部長は加藤さんを大阪へ出張させます。and 私は娘を自由に遊ばせます。 These 2 sentences fall under the same category of usage of the causative form, namely, Noun (Person) を Causative verb (自動詞Intransitive verb）.

However, 部長は加藤さんを大阪へ出張させます。 is making someone do something while 私は娘を自由に遊ばせます。 is allowing someone to something.

Can anyone please explain to me how this works? Doumo arigatou ^^

Glenn · 23 Jun 2006

I think undrentide already answered that question: it's dependent on context.

moofs · 23 Jun 2006

You can't. Both those sentence can mean let someone do something or make someone do something. It's impossible to distinguish between the two without knowing the context. But I guess this is where common sense and logic comes into play.

「部長は加藤さんを大阪へ出張させます。」 most likely means "The boss is making Katou-san go on a business trip to Osaka," and not "The boss is letting Katou-san go on a business trip to Osaka," because higher ups have authority and their underlings usually have no say in where they go.

「私は娘を自由に遊ばせます。」 most likely means "I let my daughter play freely," and not "I make my daughter play freely," because kids will do whatever they want without their parents say-so. I can't really come up with a scenario where the parent would force their kid to play freely... hmm

TGO · 23 Jun 2006

I see, thanks for answering ^^

要びます?要ばせます?

TGO

後輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

Glenn

一切皆苦

Cue

今北産業

Glenn

一切皆苦

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Glenn

一切皆苦

TGO

後輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

moofs

先輩

TGO

後輩

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