前が前だけに

raikado · 25 May 2014

Hello,

This time it's about two girls talking about a guy that has changed his attitude recently from bad to good. One of them says 前が前だけに、すげーイイ奴に見えるから不思議だ。(my translation: "_________, he seems like an incredibly nice guy, so it is curious.)

I don't understand what 前が前だけに means. It seems that だけに means something like "because....it's natural that....", but 前が前 still makes no sense to me.

Kraemder · 25 May 2014

Never saw that structure before but it's in my Japanese grammar dictionary. This thing is nice.

だけに a phrase that carries the idea "as one would expect". Here is an exams sentence.

ビルは元フットボール選手だけに足が速い。
Bill used to be a football player, and, as one would expect, he runs fast.

You can add さすが to show you're impressed.

Toritoribe · 25 May 2014

だけに
連語］《副助詞「だけ」＋格助詞「に」》
２ …であるから、なおのこと。「期待が大きかった―失望も大きかった」
３ …であるから、それにふさわしく。「りっぱな人物―多くの人から慕われている」

だけにの意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

It's not #3 "…であるから、それにふさわしく as one would expect" but #2 "…であるから、なおのこと all the more reason to" in this case.

As for 前が前, the former 前 means his previous behavior and the latter refers to the contents of it "how he actually behaved in the past", i.e., "bad". Thus, it emphasizes "he was bad in the past" here.
e.g.
理由が理由だからしょうがない。＝理由が特別だからしょうがない。 / 無理もない理由だからしょうがない。
It can't be helped because the reason is special/understandable.

raikado · 26 May 2014

Then, I guess the meaning of AがA heavily depends on the context. Well, thank you.

I'd like to ask another question, though it is unrelated to the first one. It's something about ほど this time. The sentences are about courting someone.

離れれば離れるほど気持ち深まる！！想いってのは、障害が多いほど高まる！！会いたい時ほど安易に会わないのが吉！！

The problem is the last sentence.

1. Does の nominalize the whole thing that precedes it, or just 安易に会わない? (Right now I'm assuming it nominalizes the whole thing)

2. What role does 時 play there?

忙しい時ほど、ギターが弾きたくなる。
I never want to play the guitar more than when I'm busy.

急いでいる時ほど、(家の)汚れが気になり、掃除をしたくなる。
I'm never more concerned about cleaning the house than when I'm in a hurry.

Even in these translated sentences I don't see the logic behind 時ほど.

From those sentences ほど seems to mean "extent" but the literal translation still doesn't make sense to me.

Kraemder · 26 May 2014

すみません。参った。

raikado · 26 May 2014

So...I stumbled upon an online version of Japanese a Comprehensive Grammar and found a few examples.

1. It says that when the verb is posivitive the meaning is 'more than', 'to the extent that'.

a. 苦しい時ほど愛する対象が欲しいんです。
One never wants something to love as much as in hard times.
To me, even if it tells me that it means 'to the extent that', the logic of this sentence still makes no sense.

b. 母のいない人ほど母への思いは強くなる。
No one has stronger feelings towards his mother than someone who doesn't have one.

So, in the end the problem is not with 時 but with my understanding of ほど. In order for these sentences to have these translations I'd need to do something like this: 苦しい時ほど愛する対象が欲しい時じゃないんです。母のいない人ほど母への思いが強くなる人じゃない。It seems to work for any other sentence as well...but is this the right way to think about this?

2. When the verb is negative the meaning is 'not as...as'. I guess my sentence falls under this category, although they give an example that is better tranlsated as 'to the extent': 女性は本当に意外なほど、男性の好きなものを知らない。（girls don't know about the things men like to the extent that it is truly surprising)

会いたい時ほど安易に会わないのが吉
So...with this in mind..."Not meeting as easily as when you want to meet is a joy.(Not meeting when you want to meet is a joy)" is the best I can manage. Would the sentence still be valid without 時?

Please tell me if I wrote all this for nothing because everything is wrong.

すみません。参った。

No problem I either got this, or I got everything completely wrong. I hope it's the former though...

Toritoribe · 26 May 2014

In your examples, ほど means "to the extent" only in 女性は本当に意外なほど、男性の好きなものを知らない. The rest are all "the more~, the more...".

ほど / 考える / とある場合 / みる

raikado · 26 May 2014

Well, that's what I thought initially, but then, why is 時 there?

Kraise · 26 May 2014

I guess this is a matter of "acceptance" of the way japanese speakers think.
For this, literal translations are going to make you a lot more confused and will do little to help you improve your japanese as well, since Its like you're searching for a mechanism in english to explain japanese.
Take the first sentence for example:
苦しい時ほど愛する対象が欲しいんです。
When does one wish more to have somebody to love? The more a "moment is painful"(roughly) the more one wishes to have a lover

About 時,
Have you ever seen the expression "もしものとき"?
It works like that to define a circumstance/moment, no special meaning added, neither a need to translate literally

Toritoribe · 26 May 2014

raikado said:
Well, that's what I thought initially, but then, why is 時 there?

In your examples, ほど is used for "comparison between two things" except the only "extent" example, which I already mentioned. For instance, 彼は彼女ほど歌がうまくない doesn't just mean "he is worse at singing than she is". The key of this ほど is that they are both good at singing but he is not good as she is, i.e., 彼も歌がうまいが、彼女ほどではない / 彼も歌がうまいが、彼女はもっとうまい "He is also good at singing but not to the extend that she is. / He is also good at singing but she is better than he is." Similarly, unlike just 忙しい時は、ギターが弾きたくなる, 忙しい時ほど、ギターが弾きたくなる connotes 忙しくない時もギターが弾きたくなるが、忙しい時はもっと弾きたくなる "I want to play the guitar also when I'm not busy, but when I'm busy, I want to do so more strongly."
離れれば離れるほど気持ち深まる is basically the same, too. It means 少し離れても気持ちが深まるが、もっと離れるともっと気持ちが深まる (= "the more~, the more...").

急いでいる時ほど、汚れが気になる。＝急いでいない時も、汚れが気になるが、急いでいる時は、もっと気になる。
苦しい時ほど愛する対象が欲しい。＝苦しくない時も愛する対象が欲しいが、苦しい時はもっと欲しい。
母のいない人ほど母への思いは強くなる。＝母のいる人も母への思いは強いが、母のいない人はもっと強くなる。

Now you can see the logic?

raikado · 27 May 2014

Toritoribe said:
In your examples, ほど is used for "comparison between two things" except the only "extent" example, which I already mentioned. For instance, 彼は彼女ほど歌がうまくない doesn't just mean "he is worse at singing than she is". The key of this ほど is that they are both good at singing but he is not good as she is, i.e., 彼も歌がうまいが、彼女ほどではない / 彼も歌がうまいが、彼女はもっとうまい "He is also good at singing but not to the extend that she is. / He is also good at singing but she is better than he is." Similarly, unlike just 忙しい時は、ギターが弾きたくなる, 忙しい時ほど、ギターが弾きたくなる connotes 忙しくない時もギターが弾きたくなるが、忙しい時はもっと弾きたくなる "I want to play the guitar also when I'm not busy, but when I'm busy, I want to do so more strongly."
離れれば離れるほど気持ち深まる is basically the same, too. It means 少し離れても気持ちが深まるが、もっと離れるともっと気持ちが深まる (= "the more~, the more...").

急いでいる時ほど、汚れが気になる。＝急いでいない時も、汚れが気になるが、急いでいる時は、もっと気になる。
苦しい時ほど愛する対象が欲しい。＝苦しくない時も愛する対象が欲しいが、苦しい時はもっと欲しい。
母のいない人ほど母への思いは強くなる。＝母のいる人も母への思いは強いが、母のいない人はもっと強くなる。

Now you can see the logic?;-)

Yes, it makes sense now. Well...regarding my initial sentence (会いたい時ほど安易に会わないのが吉) I still have this question left:1. Does の nominalize the whole thing that precedes it, or just 安易に会わない?

Toritoribe · 27 May 2014

I don't see any significant difference in meaning between those two interpretations.

raikado · 27 May 2014

Well, I would like to know how it is natural to think about it. And in other situations it might matter.

Toritoribe · 27 May 2014

Both are equally natural. Do you feel any difference between them?

raikado · 28 May 2014

Ok, I get the idea. Grammatically speaking, it is a different thing, but I realize it doesn't matter now as long as the meaning is the same.
Well, it is exactly like Kraise said, I am trying to search for rules in english to explain japanese, which accomplishes nothing in the end.

Thank you for your help. That explanation about ほど was a great help.

前が前だけに

raikado

先輩

Kraemder

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

Kraemder

後輩

raikado

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

Kraise

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

raikado

先輩

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