を言う

KrazyKat · 27 Apr 2006

Today's question.
What exactly does を言う mean and how is it different from と言う.

yukio_michael · 27 Apr 2006

I had a similar conversation today about, と言いましても, using verb 言う (to say)... "even if I said so...", or "but"...

と言いましても

I looked & looked for a full explanation of this phrase but it took a native speaker today a few seconds to tell me, and say that it's perhaps a bit difficult Japanese...

...patiently awaits responses. Paging: Elizabeth.

MeAndroo · 27 Apr 2006

I always thought putting the と was more indicative of a specific quote or piece of speech, while using を was more vague. But I also eagerly await a full explanation from someone with more knowledge on the subject.

KrazyKat · 27 Apr 2006

Thinking:
I think the answer lies somewhere here. We say things like じつをいうと . Of course the person here isn't actually saying 'jitu' but what they are saying is 'jitu'. Is that sounding about right?

と言いましても would be a polite version of と言っても

an example taken from google:
塩トマトと言ってもしょっぱいトマトではありません!
lit. Even if you say that this is a salted tomato, its not very salty!

for translation how about: I know that this is a salted tomato, but its not very salty!

nice gaijin · 27 Apr 2006

言っても/言いましても would be along the lines of "even though I say this..." and would be part of something like ボーナスと言っても、雀の涙だけです。 "Even though I said bonus, it was just a pittance (tear of the sparrow)" I believe 言いましても is just a more polite, roundabout way to say the same thing.

を言う follows what is actually said, and is just a way of quoting, whereas the quote is the direct object.

という has several uses, like to identify something that goes by a name: LAという都市/city called LA, or to refer to the subject of something to better define it: thisというのはbetter explanation

Glenn · 27 Apr 2006

I think Kat pretty much got it with her "thinking" section.

nice gaijin said:
を言う follows what is actually said, and is just a way of quoting, whereas the quote is the direct object.

I'm not sure what you mean there. と marks the quote, を marks the thing being talked about. 日本人はこれを書籍と言う。or something like that. It looks like you were saying the opposite.

nice gaijin · 27 Apr 2006

I think i worded myself poorly; I mean that をいう marks the preceding statement as the direct object of the sentence. Other than stuff like 何を言った, I can't think of other examples off-hand.

Elizabeth · 27 Apr 2006

I don't think をいう is very common but like nicegaijin said, just refers to
"saying the word" (言葉をいう), "saying the thing" -- or loosely "it says that it is..." (事をいう） -- regarding whatever precedes, often a の or という phrase. 危ないということをいう (The thing that it says is that it is dangerous) etc.
I really hope this didn't make things even more confusing....

yukio_michael · 28 Apr 2006

Mukade said:
Actually, the ○○と言うと formation means something like:
Literally - 'if you say ○○'
Smoothly - 'on the subject of ○○'
So, the sentence would be something like:
'On the subject of what people in this area where thinking...'
*I know this isn't a very smooth translation, but if you're trying to figure out what the Japanese is doing, this should give you an idea.

...from another thread.

undrentide · 29 Apr 2006

nice gaijin said:
I think i worded myself poorly; I mean that をいう marks the preceding statement as the direct object of the sentence. Other than stuff like 何を言った, I can't think of other examples off-hand.

Another example is 礼を言う, also 文句を言う.

Elizabeth · 29 Apr 2006

undrentide said:
Another example is 礼を言う, also 文句を言う.

挨拶(を言う) is also grammatically correct at least (?), although maybe not so polite....

Comparing ways を and と are used more generally, there are cases they are nearly identical, but perhaps と is more formal and less conversationally common
as in

数人が座っているのを想像してくだい。or 数人が座っていると想像してください。

KrazyKat · 29 Apr 2006

undrentide said:
Another example is 礼を言う, also 文句を言う.

Thanks everyone. I think I understand it a lot clearer now.

を言う

KrazyKat

先輩

yukio_michael

後輩

MeAndroo

先輩

KrazyKat

先輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Glenn

一切皆苦

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Elizabeth

先輩

yukio_michael

後輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

KrazyKat

先輩

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