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の and other questions

bakaKanadajin

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So I'm a high-beginner low-intermediate. Right now I'm self-studying until language classes start up again in the fall. If I find a suitable summer program I may jump on it but until then its just me, my books and my language exchange partners.

Lately I've been having trouble understanding casual speech and formulating casual speech. I found some examples in my conversation book that mimic a small problem I'm having with the (to me) elusive の。

会ったことがあるのかあの男に
Have you met that man before?

Up until now, my studies have provided me with a few usages for の. One is possession, another is nominalization. I'm not sure how this fits in. How does the above sentence differ from:

会ったことがあるかあの男に
(Is it even still correct without the の?)

Another example:
あんなに高いからって言ったのに、買っちゃｔったの、あなたは。
Even though I told you it was so expensive, you bought it didnt you?

I understand that the first の, part of のに, means 'in spite of' or 'even though', but how does the second one work? Same problem as the first sentence, whats the idea behind it? I know literal translations aren't always a possibility but there must be some thought process behind it that's mimicked some other way in English.

Also, the からって言った, why is it necessary to have the から there? Again, up to this point から for me can mean since/because, or with verb+て+から it can mean 'after doing' but here I'm a little lost. I know the translation isn't literal but I can't find an 'idea' or 'thought' for it in the English counterpart. Why not just:

あんなに高いと言ったのに。。。
Even though I said it was so expensive...
(that's probably completely wrong but.. why??)

One last question, how common is the replacement of the 'と' particle with the coloquial って? I'm constantly listening for 'と' in conjunction with 言う or 思う but I think I'm hearing this って business instead, and its throwing me off.

Thanks for listening, I know its a lot of questions and I should get a teacher but the present moment I am without a 先生。
 
I think the second の is possibly just a sentence ender in question form. Kinda like:
みかさんと勉強するの、つばささんは
Will you (Tsubasa) study with Mika?

I think a bit more formally つばささんは would be in the front. So if you move あなたは to the front doesn't make more sense?
 
Is that your translation or a version provided by the book???

If it is "Have you met before ? That man...." then の is inserted as a polite 'softener' which gives it a slightly more rounded, feminine sound. But it is often left out conversationally as part of an embedded question with no problem whatsoever.

It is necessary, on the other hand, if the sentence seems to be referring to two separate people. の acting now a "stand in" or "place holder" particle for "the one" (aforementioned), か as "or," and あの男に as "that man." Putting all these elements together it becomes "Is it the one you've met before OR (for, to) that man?" which doesn't really look conceivable with the に ending but just for illustrative purposes....


から is since or because and isn't necessary but by providing the reason it was suggested not to buy does add a basis of reason and objectivity to the speaker's argument. Comparable in English to : "Although I said not to buy it because it was so expensive, you did anyway !???"

Extremely common. Even in desu, masu, not so colloquial speech.
 
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Thanks for the quick responses!

Damicci yes you're right but this portion of my studies is highlighting how in casual conversation the clause order is quite loose and can change. In a more formal situation I agree you'd use the 'wa' phrase first I think. Also, are you saying 'no' can be a question particle like 'ka' in casual Japanese?

Elizabeth I see what you mean. So the の is sometimes used simply as a softener in the feminine diction? And therefore I need not concern myself with it so much but perhaps train my ears to listen for it?

In your example where か indicates 'or', is this a correct example?

会ったことがあるのかぜんぜん見なかった、あの男に。
Have you met before, or never seen, that man?

I understand your explanation for the kara. The English idea would maybe be like this?

Because its so expensive (and THAT'S why you shouldn't buy it) even though I said this, you still bought it didnt you?

The implied (bracketed) information seems to be contained in the 2nd clause of 'you still bought it didnt you' ?

Yes these are examples from my book, not my own, and yes I also think these are examples of softer femenine diction because of the 'chatta' inserted into 買う. My female exchange partner does this, but I was laughed at by my guy friends when I tried to use it. I thought it was genderless!

Right now i'm really trying to practice thinking in Japanese. My vocab and grammar aren't so bad for my level but creating natural sounding Japanese even in these simple situations is proving difficult. Simply getting my butchered ideas across isn't good enough anymore.
 
I didn't mean to suggest feminine is only for women. A sentence ending ka directly following the plain form of a verb is unacceptably harsh or "tight" sounding to many men as well....

But it isn't my position to tell anyone how to speak. 'No' in particular is highly protean and contextual. Observe the conditions under which your friends laugh the hardest and tailor yourself to their example in their company as far as you feel personally comfortable.
 
I often hear women saying verbの but I don't know for sure if it is a feminine thing. MY dictionary says it is more of a feminine way of asking a a question. Yes の is often used as a question particle.

Update: weird rikai chan used to (fem) question (sentence end)
Now it says "indicates question" (sentence end)

So I am pretty sure in this case it is replacing ka as the question particle.
 
Thanks guys

Actually as I was looking through my lang.x notes I found a question I'd written down:

何が入っているのかな。

This question was referring to a cup on a table.

So the 入っている is the finished intransitive state of entering, (something entered the cup, and it's still "entered") and the の is a 'softener', and か or かな are standard question endings?

Is there some rule as to when its natural to add the の as a softener? And why add かな if the の can be a question particle? I suppose it can't do both right?
 
かな I think is more of a "I wonder" modifier
To me IMHO that sentence looks more like "I wonder what is in there?"
 
It's more of a feminine thing but a lot of men use it too with a rising tone in question form. I think women & children may be more apt to end sentences with の for emotive or explanatory emphasis.


Yeah, here's the most recent thread I remember on this whole mess...

"すいてる[の[か]]" | Japan Forum
 
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Chau/chatta has come to be used largely by girls or women, and it is very casual usage some may consider cute or childish. I won't comment on that.

You're just lucky your friends aren't from Kansai. From what I hear there it is strictly male. So you may have been laughed at, but at least they couldn't challenge your masculinity....


In your example where か indicates 'or', is this a correct example?

会ったことがあるのかぜんぜん見なかった、あの男に。
Have you met before, or never seen, that man?
Click to expand...
I'd have to think about that more. Just realize that before a phrase, clause or full sentence which presents an alternate to what has gone before I don't believe か can be used. You need to separate them, in this case, with それとも ？

あの男にあったことがない？
それとも、ぜんぜん見たことも（？）ない？

 
Thanks guys, think i've got it. My stumbling block now seems to be using things like this naturally on the fly. I suppose that just comes with practice, however it's good to have some basic foundational principles behind your ideas to guide you.

so..to recap

'no' alone with the rising intonation is a soft but natural replacement for desuka in most situations but is not limited to women. 'ka' alone is rather abrupt. If there's no question, like kacchattano, it's just a simple softener of sorts found at the end of verbs both regular and stative (and then if it WAS a question you could add ka)

I'll try it out
 
If there's no question, like kacchattano, it's just a simple softener of sorts found at the end of verbs both regular and stative (and then if it WAS a question you could add ka)
Click to expand...
There are much more in depth threads than I have time for now, but to cut to the bone, if there is no question implied, declarative sentences ending in the の（だ、です）、conversationally abbreviated to ～んです、 pattern are normally used to convey an explanatory nuance or tone. If a reason for the behavior is called for in the question or the question carries an emotive undercurrent, asked in surprise, anger, disappointment, etc. it is also ended in this grammar.

（どうして）行けないの（いくんですか？）？(You can't come ? Why aren't you coming)

今は忙しいの（んだ）。(It's because I'm busy now...). Note this sounds very feminine. Most men would tack on a だ after the の。

The character being addressed in this dialogue that bought an expensive item against the speakers advice clearly has something to account for. Therefore, the attachment of no to Kacchatta [WHY did you buy it???] I would interpret not as modifying or softening but as a clear request for further information and explanation.

分かっていただきました？
 
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今は忙しいの（んだ）。(It's because I'm busy now...). Note this sounds very feminine. Most men would tack on a だ after the の。
Click to expand...
Yes I've got it. So, convceivably, I should listen for any one of the following:
今は忙しいnoda
or
今は忙しいnda
or
今は忙しいnonda
This last one seems strange to read but I can see its progression.
 
bakaKanadajin said:
Yes I've got it. So, convceivably, I should listen
今は忙しいnonda
This last one seems strange to read but I can see its progression.
Click to expand...
If you're talking to men, yes. Of course they could also substitute です for だ and women also use んだ、んです。 nonda doesn't exist as far as I know. :?
 
Damicci said:
かな I think is more of a "I wonder" modifier
To me IMHO that sentence looks more like "I wonder what is in there?"
Click to expand...
Also I think the の before かな is a little unusual since it appears to show great interest in the subject. I really wonder what that stuff in the cup is....type feeling.
 
Going for a trial lesson at a Japanese convo. school on monday, I'm hoping it ends up being the kind of place where I get exposed to this stuff on a regular basis and it starts to sink in. Crossing my yubi's!
 
bakaKanadajin said:
Going for a trial lesson at a Japanese convo. school on monday, I'm hoping it ends up being the kind of place where I get exposed to this stuff on a regular basis and it starts to sink in. Crossing my yubi's!
Click to expand...

私もその計画がうまくいくといいですね。 I also hope that plan works out !


Here are a few more threads on the use of ～（な）のだ、～んだ as a highlighting force in question-answer exchange dialogues. I may not have emphasized it strongly enough before, but I'm sure you know already that の、ん is also required by the grammar between infinitive form of the verb and before a だ、です ending. So there isn't invariably an explanatory overtone and it can be a quite neutral pattern depending on the situation.


Anyway, some things to look at in the downtime between practices...the last is mostly Japanese, がんばってね！

na no desu?

The "redundant" "n" before "da" and "desu"

違いは何ですか
 
会ったことがあるのか あの男に​
Lizzy has explained well, let me add a few points that's confusing.

1.会ったことがあるの？
2.会ったことがあるか？
3.会ったことがあるのか？
​

Both 2 and 3 are formal/masculine/literary/poetic. Only 1 is feminine.

Note that 1 can also be heard from straight men, but less from Kansai-jin.

の used here is still a nominalizing particle （体言止め）. Iｔ's very similar to こと. But こと is 詠嘆/感動用法 (the usage to express one's surprise/amazement).

まあ、大きなお子さんですこと。 How big your baby is!
須磨の海岸のいとめでたきことよ。This sentence is 古文 (ancient Japanese)
How marvellous Suma Beach is!

の is used to ask questions (as you already know), but it can also be used to express one's surprise/pleasant feelings/displeasant/disappointment.

今日もプールに行くの！ You go to the pool today, too! (surprise/pleasant feeling/disappointment)
入試に受かったの！ You passed the entrance exam!​

I discovered here that エリザベスはなんと日本語が堪能なことよ！

EDIT:
Lizzy said:
From what I hear there it is strictly male.
Click to expand...
No, using の is not "strictly male," but it's true that it used less by male.
 

Let's think of の as not a "question particle" but just a "nominalizing particle."
体言止め (a clause ending in noun or noun clause) is what you're talking about
"nominalizing particle" can appear in the middle of a sentence as well as at the end of a sentence.
 

1. This is very formal/literary/academic/assertive. You'll almost never hear it used except for ceremonial/political speech.
2. This is colloquial.
3. This is incorrect.
 
bakaKanadajin said:
会ったことがあるのかあの男に
Have you met that man before?
Click to expand...

To understand this sentence properly we'll first fix up the word order...

あの男に会ったことがあるのか

The の that you're talking about is a noun that is nominalised by everything before it. Basically it's a relative clause. When it's in a question it translates to "is it that...?" and when it's in an answer/explanation form it translates to "it is that...". So the above sentence literally translates to "Is it that you've met that man?" (maybe the previous sentence somehow indicated that the person has met this man before and his friend now wants more information, thus asking this question).

Here's another example. A man is reading a book and starts laughing. His friend then says 面白いのですか, meaning "is it (his friend's laughing) that it's interesting"?

Consider this little conversation:
A: すしを食べに行こう
B: ええ、それはちょっと・・・
A: ええ？もう食べたの(です)か

Person A suggests that they go for sushi, but person B objects. Person A then says "is it (the fact that you're objecting) that you've already eaten?"
 
The の that you're talking about is a noun that is nominalised by everything before it.
Click to expand...
Close! It's the opposite. の is the one that nominalizes the words precedeng it.
 
As undrentide-san explained in the cited thread and was discussed above, の as a question ending particle is very often tacked on as a slightly feminine softener. Reading in an emotive emphasis depends on the situation. Could be asked out of surprise, curiousity, in a slightly suspicious, demanding etc tone but that isn't something at all inherent in the particle or grammar itself.


"すいてる[の[か]]"
 
One of the reasons I suspect for it having this slightly feminine feel could be because the sentence has been made indirect by the use of の. So when you ask a question that uses の, the の itself is the question which in itself "contains" the more direct sounding words (i.e. the actual question itself).

So walk up to a guy on the street and say:
すみません、郵便局を探しているんですけど

What you're really saying is "excuse me, the reason I'm here, the reason that I stopped you on the street, the reason you're looking at me right now, the reason for our current shared existance is that I'm looking for the post office, and (I want you to help me)"

This reasoning can be applied anytime you see one of these の's.

Oh, and my source for this is 'Making Sense of Japanese' by Jay Rubin.
 
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