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ず vs ぬ on Intransitive Verbs

I only brought it up because the OP asked if it was antiquated or used by older people. I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

As for ぬ, the first thing that springs to mind is 知らぬが佛 (Ignorance is bliss - is the most common translation).
But this is a well-worn phrase, and there must be more modern examples.
 
I also like "oya shirazu no ha" (wisdom teeth), meaning "teeth that a parent will never see or know".

(I'm temporarily unable to type hiragana.)
 
知らんぷり
見知らぬ人
素知らぬ振り
何食わぬ顔
思わぬ出来事
言わんこっちゃない

These are mostly set expressions. ぬ(or ん) is more commonly used in colloquial speech in western Japan, e.g., 知らん, わからん, できん, etc..
 
Your understanding is correct. As same as ない in modern Japanese, ぬ and ず are attached to 未然形.
I see... I realized something that made me think I was completely wrong, but I don't remember what it was anymore... Sorry for disappearing

未然形 of modern verbs is the same as the classical ones, but the only one exception is する and -suru verbs.
Let me guess, is す the classical version of する? (like 話す、殺す、etc.) Nevermind, you already said it

classical: ず/
It seems that some phrases like 無理せず have continued to stay in the language despite the disappearance of many other usages, I wonder why but this thread would probably get too crazy if you answered that, so it's alright

It's the latter. ~ませず used to be used in Meiji period, i.e., a hundred or so years ago, but it's obsolete now.
I see. Maybe a year from now, I'll more completely understand the "feel" of these words, hopefully not wishful thinking
Ahh okay, I can definitely get that then, ず being more factual (hence me hearing it most often on the news) and ぬ being more emotional (hence me hearing it attached to words in songs, such as 「許さぬ」)
宝くじは当たらぬ is a sentence, so it's like "A memory is not forgotten." "A memory that is not forgotten" is also a noun phrase. It's the same as "a memory not forgotten" in meaning, right?
I see... I'm going to have to read over this conversation again a few times for sure, since it's definitely not easy to make everything "click" if you know what I mean...
Also, I'd say "a memory that is not forgotten" and "a memory not forgotten" have the same meaning inherently, but, I think it technically has a different feel to it in a way, more like a title. Also, "a memory that is not forgotten" contains the verb "to be" in the form "is", so on a technical standpoint, that's why I wouldn't be sure it can be called a "noun phrase", since it has a verb in it after all (but then again, I don't even know if "not" is technically a verb too in English )

Anyway, thank you again everyone for participating in this discussion with me. I will ask more relevant but challenging questions in the near future!
 
These commercials were pretty interesting Thank you for sharing!
Here are two of their TV commercial in Japanese grouped into one video. The promotional slogan 出かける時は忘れずに is shown on the screen in Japanese is at the end of each commercial, at 0:28 and 0:58.
魔法のキーワード I hear this phrase in a lot of songs (magic keyword)!

Here is a goofy video of the famous American golfer Jack Nicholas saying 出かける時は忘れずに in a really bad American accent at 0:27 and 0:41.
he literally sounded like how romaji from foreigners sounds in my head What a thick accent

They were all pretty nice videos, I bet they're great memories for you to cherish, and one day, the commercials I watched (alta science jp ) will be a distant memory to cherish for me as well.
 
Maybe also helpful to point out that it its not a one-for-one translation of "Don't leave home without it".
Rather it becomes, "When you leave home, don't forget it".
I noticed that as well, it felt like the translation was a bit more loose than direct and I got more of that feel from the original text.
 
知らぬが佛
I'm curious how that meaning comes to be, if it looks like literally "don't know is buddha" but I don't want to extend the conversation too much when there are other things to cover, so maybe I'll settle for a ChatGPT breakdown
 
It's something like "To be unknowing, that is the essence of the Buddha". I don't know if it originally meant the same thing as our "Ignorance is bliss", but the present-day meaning or intention is really close. To not know, to be in a state of unknowing (ignorance) is the essence of the Buddha. I'd have to fish around on some websites to check, but from memory I think it means that when you know too much you get too entangled in the world and you get caught up in worldly desires and passions, and the point of buddhism is to learn how to free yourself from all of those entanglements and reach enlightement/nirvana, in other words to become one with the universe, like Buddha. That's kind of the intent of the phrase, but it has instead become a kind of shorthand way of saying, "you are better off not knowing". You see your neighbor's kid doing something he shouldn't be doing? Pretend you didn't see it - you are better off not knowing.
 
Here is the phrase 見知らぬ人 (みしらぬ ひと) (mishiranu hito) meaning "stranger," appearing in the classic karaoke song 津軽海峡・冬景色 (つがる かいきょう ふゆ げしき) (Tsugaru kaikyou fuyu geshiki) (Winter scene of Tsugaru Straits). Here is the line from the video at 1:39.

ごらんあれが竜飛岬北のはずれと、見知らぬ人が指をさす。

(ごらん あれ が たっぴ みさき きた の はずれ と、みしらぬ ひと が ゆび を さす。)

A stranger pointed and said, "Look over there, that's Tappi Cape, the northern point of Aomori."

(This is one of the best-known karaoke songs, and I recommend everyone learn this early in their 'karaoke career,' I have some great memories of singing this song in a karaoke bar.)


Here is the same song in a more conventional karaoke style (no vocal, so you, the viewer, can sing the song), with the phrase 見知らぬ人 appearing at 1:49.

 
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when you know too much you get too entangled in the world and you get caught up in worldly desires and passions, and the point of buddhism is to learn how to free yourself from all of those entanglements and reach enlightement/nirvana

That is correct. We think this material world is the real reality and the afterlife is just an illusion, whereas Buddhism teaches the opposite, that the afterlife is the real reality and this material world is the illusion. It is the ignorance of this which is the 'ignorance' that is mentioned in Buddhism.
 
見果てぬ夢
届かぬ想い
尽きぬ涙
振り止まぬ雨

Indeed these expressions sound like 演歌 lyrics...


Let me guess, is す the classical version of する? (like 話す、殺す、etc.)
話す and 殺す are not the classical form of -suru verbs. These are just godan verbs that end with す. -Suru verbs consist of "action noun" + "する", for example 勉強する, 掃除する or 行動する. Indeed 勉強す, 掃除す or 感動す are the classical forms of these verbs, but actually "話す, 殺す" and "勉強す, 掃除す, 行動す" are totally different from each other.

1)
話する and 殺する don't exist.

2)
はな and ころ are not nouns.
(The noun forms of 話す and 殺す are the -masu stems はなし and ころし, respectively.)

2)
Conjugation types are different.

negative form
話さない
殺さない
話さず
殺さず

勉強しない
掃除しない
行動しない
勉強せず
掃除せず
行動せず

potential form
話せる
殺せる

勉強できる
掃除できる
行動できる

In "a memory that is not forgotten", "that is not forgotten" is a relative clause that modifies "memory". Unlike a sentence "A memory is not forgotten", the whole "a memory that is not forgotten" functions as a noun (e.g. I have a memory that is not forgotten.), as same as "a memory not forgotten". This is exactly the same difference between 宝くじは当たらぬ and 当たらぬ宝くじ in Japanese.
 
It's something like "To be unknowing, that is the essence of the Buddha".
Wow, that really makes sense. I didn't really learn much about Buddha, but I definitely understand the idea that this isn't the "base reality" that we're living in now. It's an interesting take to simply ignore it! Maybe through ignorance of the fabricated reality, we can tune into the base reality and find the truth
(This is one of the best-known karaoke songs, and I recommend everyone learn this early in their 'karaoke career,' I have some great memories of singing this song in a karaoke bar.)
I listened to it, and it was pretty beautiful! I'll try to learn it, thank you for sharing ^_^
Conjugation types are different.
Oh, now I get it, I think that'll be the main way for me to differentiate then (since I didn't really learn the verbs in a categorical sense, I kinda just learned "organically" in a sense)
はな and ころ are not nouns.
(The noun forms of 話す and 殺す are the -masu stems はなし and ころし, respectively.)
And this too It makes sense now, the classical す is only applicable to nouns, and certain ones at that, got it. So even if a verb has す, it's not the old form of する unless it's attached to a noun.
Speaking of the noun forms, (I could probably figure this out on my own if I think about it but) are most verb stems able to be nouns in that way? Or is there a rule to know when it's likely to be "noun-able", if most aren't?

I'm also wondering about something interesting I uncovered; one of my Japanese friends recently used a strange version of 「食べる」 which was 「食す」(しょくす I guess), and when I asked him about the difference, he basically said it's 丁寧語. This was the sentence he used it in:

「秋葉原でケバブを食す」
I wonder why he chose 食す over 食べる in that case?
By the way, I'll use this as one of my own test questions for myself: Is this a classical する verb? I think the answer is no, because the noun form must be 「食べ」, not 「食」. You can let me know if I was right

I see, at the very least I think I get the difference now (though it's gonna be a while before I can come anywhere close to mastering it ) so essentially the 当たらぬ part of 「当たらぬ宝くじ」 is like the adjective in a sense (even though it doesn't have い or な) so to make any kind of noun phrase with a verb + ぬ it would generally be like how adjectives are in Japanese, where it has to come before the thing that it's modifying? And then using は after a noun, then a verb with ぬ after は just makes the statement about what state the noun is in?
Since the conversation started, I feel like it's starting to become clearer much quicker than I expected! I really thought it was gonna take months before I understood even one part of this...
 
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the classical す is only applicable to nouns, and certain ones at that, got it. So even if a verb has す, it's not the old form of する unless it's attached to a noun.
You got it right.

Speaking of the noun forms, (I could probably figure this out on my own if I think about it but) are most verb stems able to be nouns in that way? Or is there a rule to know when it's likely to be "noun-able", if most aren't?
It depends on the verb. Some are commonly used as a noun (e.g. はなし from 話す, はたらき from 働く), and some are not used as a noun solely. For example, 見(み) from 見る is not used as a noun by itself, but 花見 "cherry‐blossom viewing" or 月見 "moon viewing" are common words. 食べ is rarely used even in compound words, because there also is another verb 食う(くう)as the same meaning "to eat", and its 連用形 食い(くい/ぐい) is more commonly used as a noun (e.g., 早食い(はやぐい), 大食い(おおぐい)).

食す (yes, the reading is しょくす) and the modern version 食する are not the 丁寧形/polite form of 食べる. They are different verbs of the same meaning. In fact, there are polite forms for each verb, 食します and 食べます, respectively.

食す/食する is more formal, stiff or written-language-like than 食べる. This is because it's originally used in 漢文 (a method to read classical Chinese texts as Japanese sentences), and Chinese was the formal language used in official documents, just like Latin in Europe. (Some educated people wrote their diaries in Chinese, or Chinese-like Japanese.)

The same difference exists also in some verb pairs, for example 書する(しょする) - 書く(かく) or 要する(ようする) - 要る(いる). As you might already realize, しょく, しょ and よう are 音読み "Chinese-origin reading", and た(べる), か(く) and い(る) are 訓読み "Japanese-origin reading". (Incidentally, 読み "reading" is also from the 連用形 of 読む "to read" in 音読み and 訓読み.)

By the way, I'll use this as one of my own test questions for myself: Is this a classical する verb? I think the answer is no, because the noun form must be 「食べ」, not 「食」.
As I wrote above, 食す is the classical form of 食する. 食 is actually a noun (e.g. 食が細い). However, the conjugation type is not completely the same as -suru verbs.

negative
食さない (食しない is not wrong, but almost obsolete.)
食さず(食せず is usually interpreted as the negative potential form, but can be used as the negative form in very classical texts.)

potential
食せる (not 食できる)

This is a trivial thing, but this phenomenon is called サ変動詞の五段化 "changing of the conjugation type of -suru irregular verbs to the godan conjugation type" in Japanese grammar. It only occurs on single kanji stem -suru verbs, and doesn't occur on 勉強する, 掃除する or 行動する in my previous examples. Also, it differs depending on the verb in what degree the verb is changed, i.e., which type, for example 〇しない or 〇さない, is more commonly used.

examples (quoted from a research with using Asahi Newspaper database)
愛す/愛する
negative
〇愛さない
×愛しない
〇愛さず
×愛せず (This form exists, but it's only used as the negative potential form.)

potential
〇愛せる
×愛できる

imperative
〇愛せ
×愛しろ

屈す(くっす)/屈する(くっする)
negative
×屈さない
〇屈しない
×屈さず
〇屈せず

potential
×屈せる
×屈できる
(The potential form is hardly used in the first place since 屈す/屈する is a non-volitional verb.)

imperative
×屈せ
〇屈しろ

Thus, it can be said that 愛す/愛する is closer to godan verbs, and 屈す/屈する is still a -suru verb.

That's right.

And then using は after a noun, then a verb with ぬ after は just makes the statement about what state the noun is in?
It's more simple. Basically, when a verb (or adjective or copula) is put at the end, it's a sentence. Thus, 宝くじは当たらぬ。 is just a classical version of 宝くじは当たらない。, and needless to say, 当たらぬ宝くじ is the classical version of 当たらない宝くじ, as well.

The same goes with the affirmative form of verbs, past form, potential form, etc..
当たる宝くじ(noun)
宝くじが当たった。 (sentence)
 
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You got it right.
Phew Thank you very much for helping me grasp these things!!
Funnily enough, I learned the word 「食う」 just around a day after I posted on here 「俺は食う!!」 from Luffy in the McDonald's commercial.
But it seems essentially, I'm just going to have to continue expanding my vocabulary and discover when/what verb stems become nouns. There are more exceptions in Japan than I originally thought, I guess because when you start learning a language, the beginner content always tries to make everything look easier and more simplified than it really is but that's alright, I'm sure I can handle this
I see, that's quite strange then, that he thought it was 丁寧語 (considering he was a Japanese guy in his late 40s, I would've thought he escaped from the trend of Japanese people not even knowing proper 丁寧語, but I guess it affects even some people of that age in some way...)
So, considering it's more stiff/written-like, and considering the rest of the stuff he said to me was generally casual, do you have any ideas why he used that verb in place of 食べる? The sentence was 「秋葉原でケバブを食す」, do you think it was to make it more like an "article" sounding title? More like it wasn't coming from his own words, but like a general concept of "eating Kebabs in Akihabara"?
That's something I'll have to learn to pay more attention to I kinda know it subconsciously but I don't pay much attention to it since I'm super focused on just being able to understand at all and I've noticed which seems to be too many exceptions where I'd expect the 訓読み to be used but 音読み was used and vice versa (mainly for kanji words).
As I wrote above, 食す is the classical form of 食する. 食 is actually a noun (e.g. 食が細い). However, the conjugation type is not completely the same as -suru verbs.
Dang, unexpected failure well, now I know!
難しいなぁ there's really sooo many exceptions, but hopefully I'll get the hang of them... After reading like 20 more times, I can at least get that this only happens with the suru verbs that have one kanji as you said, so I guess it's at least easy to understand that if it has three kanji, it won't change from the typical 「~する」 conjugation. Thank you
examples (quoted from a research with using Asahi Newspaper database)
After looking at them carefully, it seems I'll just have to continue immersion and pay attention even more to try and have the right conjugations in my mind. I doubt I'll be able to memorize them in a conscious way since the pattern to the exceptions seems to be too complex for me at the moment at the very least, reading them like this will make it that much easier to catch these words in their correct conjugations when I hear them, so thanks!
That's right.
^-^
Wow, that really was more simple a lot of things just clicked for me because you said this, thank you!!
 
I see, that's quite strange then, that he thought it was 丁寧語
I think he used the term 丁寧語 mistakenly. He would want to say that 食す was used in more formal situations than 食べる or something like that.

It's not "casual", but just neutral.

Yes, it sounds like a title of an article. Classical expressions also have a similar nuance, so it's often used as the title of movies or novels.
e.g.
For Whom the Bell Tolls: 誰がために鐘は鳴る(たがためにかねはなる) (not 誰のために鐘は鳴る(のだろう))
Gone with the Wind: 風と共に去りぬ(かぜとともにさりぬ) (not 風と一緒に去った)
 
I think he used the term 丁寧語 mistakenly. He would want to say that 食す was used in more formal situations than 食べる or something like that.
Ah I see, just a wrong choice of words then.
It's not "casual", but just neutral.
Well yeah, but when I said casual I just meant in general how he texted me (not just using the dictionary forms, but using だ、ぞ・ぜ、never using です・ます or other polite language, etc.) so I was originally confused on why he used such a word (assuming it's not normal to use formal/stiff words in casual conversation), but it makes sense now ↓
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense and also helps me regarding title creation.
 
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