が vs のに

The7thSamurai · 24 May 2007

One of my teachers told me today that the following sentence is incorrect:

単語を辞書で調べましたのに分かりませんでした。

Aparently it should be が and not のに, but I'm having a hard time trying to understand why のに is incorrect here. The definition in my book says that you use のに in the following situations: 話す人の意外な気持ち、不満、非難、残念な気持ち. Surely that above sentence qualifies as either 話す人の意外な気持ち, i.e. I expected to understand the meaning after looking it up in the dictionary. It could even qualify as 残念な気持ち, i.e. it's unfortunate that I still don't understand.

The7thSamurai · 24 May 2007

Ok, I've just found this piece of information in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar:

'The style of the のに clause is always informal, but depending on the style of the second sentence, the style of the sentence preceding が can be either informal or formal.'

I wonder if that was the ONLY problem with that sentence? If I had said 単語を辞書で調べたのに分かりませんでした, would it be alright?

nhk9 · 24 May 2007

I've always been taught that you can think about "no ni" as more or less like "despite" in English. It should be stronger than "ga", which is normally translated as "but".

I would say "単語を辞書で調べたのにまだ（意味が）分かっていません。"

The7thSamurai · 24 May 2007

Yeah, it's like 'despite' in English, but there are quite a few restrictions on it, and it's also aparently quite emotive so you probably wouldn't find it in factual essays.

nhk9 · 24 May 2007

Right, that's why I don't use it often myself. Mostly I would use it in combination with "sekkaku". It seems like whatever follows "no ni" is usually negative. I try to follow what natives speakers do and not worry too much about the rules (since there are so many). I will worry about them later when and if I have to write in Japanese.

Elizabeth · 24 May 2007

Bucko said:
One of my teachers told me today that the following sentence is incorrect:
単語を辞書で調べましたのに分かりませんでした。
Aparently it should be が and not のに, but I'm having a hard time trying to understand why のに is incorrect here. The definition in my book says that you use のに in the following situations: 話す人の意外な気持ち、不満、非難、残念な気持ち. Surely that above sentence qualifies as either 話す人の意外な気持ち, i.e. I expected to understand the meaning after looking it up in the dictionary. It could even qualify as 残念な気持ち, i.e. it's unfortunate that I still don't understand.

In my experience and reading there needs to be a more pronounced contrast between expectations and reality for のに to work normally.

Even in English would you really want to say "Despite having looked it up in the dictionary, I still don't understand" or "In spite of the fact that I looked it up in the dictionary, I still dont' understand." Well, it may be OK in Australian English but Americans would I'm sure roll their eyes in ridicule, no? Simply looking at an entry in the dictionary is not taken by anyone as a guarantee of clarity, understanding or proper usage.

Although it could also be that the speaker looks ignorant -- depending on the word and definition....was this a Japanese dictionary with a lot of hard vocabulary, Bucko-san ?

The7thSamurai · 24 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
"In spite of the fact that I looked it up in the dictionary, I still don't understand." Well, it may be OK in Australian English but Americans would I'm sure roll their eyes in ridicule, no?

Yeah I know it sounds kind of strange in English, but it's not necessarily grammatically incorrect. I thought maybe this use of のに, although maybe strange in both Japanese and the direct English translation, was grammatically alright.

Although it could also be that the speaker looks ignorant -- depending on the word and definition....was this a Japanese dictionary with a lot of hard vocabulary, Bucko-san ?

lol. この文を行った人なのはBuckoだとElizabethさんは思ったが実は教科書の例文です

Elizabeth · 27 May 2007

Bucko said:
Ok, I've just found this piece of information in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar:
'The style of the のに clause is always informal, but depending on the style of the second sentence, the style of the sentence preceding が can be either informal or formal.'
I wonder if that was the ONLY problem with that sentence? If I had said 単語を辞書で調べたのに分かりませんでした, would it be alright?

Except that the style of the sentence following のに is also formal.

不自然な感じを与えるなら、使い方を間違っているということでしょうね。

この文を行った人なのはBuckoだとElizabethさんは思ったが実は教科書の例文です

「人なのは」の「なの」は必要じゃないですね。「行った人は」がいいと思います。

「ある辞書を使わないで、この教科書だけ見たほうがいい」というあの意味のようでしょう。。。

epigene · 27 May 2007

Bucko said:
One of my teachers told me today that the following sentence is incorrect:
単語を辞書で調べましたのに分かりませんでした。
Aparently it should be が and not のに, but I'm having a hard time trying to understand why のに is incorrect here. The definition in my book says that you use のに in the following situations: 話す人の意外な気持ち、不満、非難、残念な気持ち. Surely that above sentence qualifies as either 話す人の意外な気持ち, i.e. I expected to understand the meaning after looking it up in the dictionary. It could even qualify as 残念な気持ち, i.e. it's unfortunate that I still don't understand.

I actually don't see anything wrong with the sentence. Of course, the use of が would be "better," so to speak, in terms of formality, but this statement would be easily said by a woman or even by a man in an informal situation.
(This has also been confirmed by my spouse, the Japanese language master... )

Elizabeth · 27 May 2007

epigene said:
I actually don't see anything wrong with the sentence. Of course, the use of が would be "better," so to speak, in terms of formality, but this statement would be easily said by a woman or even by a man in an informal situation.
(This has also been confirmed by my spouse, the Japanese language master... )

It's a suspect, (mis)use of のに both in meaning and formality....but of course がis also heavily used in casual situations. At this point, who is counting, right ?

The7thSamurai · 28 May 2007

I've just discovered another use for のに, けど, and が...at the end of a sentence that expresses regret for the past, or a wish for the future. But I'm not 100% sure of the feeling or nuance. How's this...imagine an Australian farmer wishing for rain tomorrow. It hasn't rained for months, and there's an almost zero chance of it raining tomorrow. Which sentence do you think is more likely...? (the part in brackets is there to help my understanding of what he's wishing for, it's not actually said)

1) 明日、雨が降るといいですが（降らないでしょう）
2) 明日、雨が降るといいけど（降らないでしょう）
3) 明日、雨が降るといいのに（降らないでしょう）

Going by what I understand, although they all express low confidence, the third one, のに, expresses the lowest confidence. Am I right?

Thinking about regrets now. Yesterday our poor drought strickened Aussie farmer looked out into the sky to see some nice big rain clouds, but alas, it didn't rain. He might say:
昨日、雨が降ればよかったのに（降らなかった）
And I heard that you can only use のに for past regrets. Is that right? In other words, you wouldn't say 昨日、雨が降ればよかったけど.

みなさん、どう思いますか？

Elizabeth · 28 May 2007

Bucko said:
I've just discovered another use for のに, けど, and が...at the end of a sentence that expresses regret for the past, or a wish for the future. But I'm not 100% sure of the feeling or nuance. How's this...imagine an Australian farmer wishing for rain tomorrow. It hasn't rained for months, and there's an almost zero chance of it raining tomorrow. Which sentence do you think is more likely...? (the part in brackets is there to help my understanding of what he's wishing for, it's not actually said)

1) 明日、雨が降るといいですが（降らないでしょう）
2) 明日、雨が降るといいけど（降らないでしょう）
3) 明日、雨が降るといいのに（降らないでしょう）

Going by what I understand, although they all express low confidence, the third one, のに, expresses the lowest confidence. Am I right?

Normally for "Won't it rain tomorrow ??? or I hope it rains tomorrow!" as a plea to the rain gods/man I in as plaintive a tone as I could muster I would beg them like such : （雨男に祈っているとき。。。）

雨になるといいなぁ、雨が降らないかぁ？（降ってくれないかなあ）。

But for the stronger sounding "If only it would rain...." I'm wondering now if these two or their varients wouldn't be closer....

雨が降ってくれさえしたら。。。
雨が降ってくれたらいいのに。。。

干ばつ続きで苦しんでいるね。。。

Thinking about regrets now. Yesterday our poor drought strickened Aussie farmer looked out into the sky to see some nice big rain clouds, but alas, it didn't rain. He might say:
昨日、雨が降ればよかったのに（降らなかった）
And I heard that you can only use のに for past regrets. Is that right? In other words, you wouldn't say 昨日、雨が降ればよかったけど.

みなさん、どう思いますか？

I think if you want to use ですが、けれど it is specific to situations the speaker did some of something but wishes they had done more.

The7thSamurai · 29 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
干ばつ続きで苦しんでいるね。。。

そうですね・・・しかし、今月オーストラリアへ帰った時、２，３回雨が降った・・・もっと降ればよかったのに・・・

I think if you want to use ですが、けれど it is specific to situations the speaker did some of something but wishes they had done more.

Actually, from what I've been taught, that would make sense. You'd use けど in situations where you actually had a bit of control, but didn't do enough and thus now regret. And のに is for situations where there was no control by the speaker, and regretful situation occurred.

FrustratedDave · 30 May 2007

I also do not see a big problem with the first sentence using "のに", however in this instance "が" is the more appropriate .
If it were me I would say this if I wanted to use "のに".

単語を辞書で調べたのにまだ分かりません。

Elizabeth · 30 May 2007

FrustratedDave said:
I also do not see a big problem with the first sentence using "のに", however in this instance "が" is the more appropriate .
If it were me I would say this if I wanted to use "のに".

単語を辞書で調べたのにまだ分かりません。

Is のに supposed to be showing surprise that the speaker couldn't understand it or surprise that a dictionary wasn't perfectly understandable ???

The7thSamurai · 30 May 2007

FrustratedDave said:
I also do not see a big problem with the first sentence using "のに", however in this instance "が" is the more appropriate .
If it were me I would say this if I wanted to use "のに".
単語を辞書で調べたのにまだ分かりません。

From what I've learnt up to now, the reason why のに is unlikely in my original sentence ・・・調べましたのに・・・ is because のに is more emotive, and thus you wouldn't speak in the polite ます form. Just like how if you were suddenly stung by a bee you wouldn't say 痛いです！ you'd just say 痛い！

This whole topic seems to be pretty much done to death now!

FrustratedDave · 30 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
Is のに supposed to be showing surprise that the speaker couldn't understand it or surprise that a dictionary wasn't perfectly understandable ???

This is the best I can explain in English, but I would not necessarily the word "supprise" in this situation, although there probably would be an element in there. More so a perplexed feeling, a feeling of frustration. I know this is not the translation but this is the feeling I get when I wrote that sentence "even though I looked it up in the dictionary, I still can't understand!"

Bucko, I will answer you statement later, I have to go.

Cheers

natsuo_sakuma · 30 May 2007

調べましたのにis simply wrong. 調べたのにwould've been alright, if you end the sentence with分からなかった。

FrustratedDave · 30 May 2007

natsuo_sakuma said:
調べましたのにis simply wrong. 調べたのにwould've been alright, if you end the sentence with分からなかった。

I was just about to say that to Bucko "窶卍ｲ窶堙冷?堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ"ﾂ should not have been used.

Bucko, I only answered to help you in your studies, so if you feel the thread has run its course I will stop.

Elizabeth · 30 May 2007

FrustratedDave said:
This is the best I can explain in English, but I would not necessarily the word "supprise" in this situation, although there probably would be an element in there. More so a perplexed feeling, a feeling of frustration. I know this is not the translation but this is the feeling I get when I wrote that sentence "even though I looked it up in the dictionary, I still can't understand!"
Bucko, I will answer you statement later, I have to go.
Cheers

そうですね。

辞書に書いてあることが、常にはっきり事ではないですよね。

「この辞書がよく分からなくっても、特におかしくない状況でしょうね。

ほかの辞書を使ってください。

FrustratedDave · 30 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
FrustratedDave said: ↑
This is the best I can explain in English, but I would not necessarily the word "supprise" in this situation, although there probably would be an element in there. More so a perplexed feeling, a feeling of frustration. I know this is not the translation but this is the feeling I get when I wrote that sentence "even though I looked it up in the dictionary, I still can't understand!"
Bucko, I will answer you statement later, I have to go.
Cheers
そうですね。

辞書に書いてあることが、常にはっきり事ではないですよね。

「この辞書がよく分からなくっても、特におかしくない状況でしょうね。

ほかの辞書を使ってください。

辞書の問題ではない。そもそも僕の理解力が足りないからだ。

Elizabeth · 1 Jun 2007

I asked my b/f about this too and here are his thoughts. I'm also gonna remember all these variations in opinion the next time someone tries correcting mygrammar...

「単語を辞書で調べましたのに分かりませんでした」
→女の人が目上の人に使うなら、それほど不自然な感じはしませんね。

「調べたのに」は日常会話的な使い方ですね。

「調べたが」は報告書で使われそうな感じがしますね。

が vs のに

Master of the Universe

Master of the Universe

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

相変わらず不束者です

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

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