Vowel pronunciation

Hi, I have some questions about Japanese vowel pronunciation. If the pronunciations I'm asking about vary amongst native speakers, please assume a "good" accent that a learner should try to emulate.

1. My textbook says that when two or more vowels come together they should simply be pronounced with their usual values, except that えい is often pronounced as ええ, and おう is often pronounced as おお. Would you agree with that so far?

I don't think I have a terribly good ear for these things, but sometimes it seems to me that うう is not exactly like う + う. Am I mishearing?

(When I write うう, I'm including the cases when the first vowel is part of another syllable, as in しゅう, for example. The same goes for the other vowel combinations.)

2. In a "おお word", like とおり for example, is the hiragana "spelling" just a convention, or a historical legacy, or an accurate indication that the word definitely should not be pronounced as とうり?

3. If said in isolation, with no tempo reference, is きい (for example) distinguishable from き, and if so, how? Is there a noticeable hiatus between the vowels?

1. Yes, えい and おう are pronounced like ええ and おお. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about うう, but sometimes things are spoken so fast that long vowels sound like short ones. It's just something you have to pay attention to.

2. I guess you could say historical legacy. Basically, words like とおり, where they were おを or おほ (in this case it was とほり), the newer spelling uses お. とお (十) was とを, to give another example. In cases where it was a "au" → "ô" change, like pretty much any on-yomi, the う is used. For example, 今日 (きょう) used to be けふ, and the "epu" became "efu" (sort of, really it was "eɸu"), then the ɸ disappeared, leaving "eu", which then became "yô" (I believe with a "you" in between). There's a pretty long and interesting (I think, anyway) history of phonetic/phonological change in Japanese, and it helps explain the modern spellings.

3. Eh, probably not. Since vowel length is relative, it would be difficult to tell the length of a vowel in isolation. It's like a tempo thing. You can't know whether you're hearing a whole note, half note, quarter note, etc. if there's no meter/beat put to it. I don't know if that helps you any, though.

Glenn said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about うう

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I wasn't sure if the sound うう is supposed to be exactly like two the sound of individual う's in a row. You're saying it should be, right?

Glenn said:

It's like a tempo thing.

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I agree with this. The difference between きいた（聞いた） and きた（来た） is roughly "three morae vs two morae".

eeky said:

I wasn't sure if the sound うう is supposed to be exactly like two the sound of individual う's in a row. You're saying it should be, right?

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I can't think of the one that has うう. What is the word, for example?

Toritoribe said:

I can't think of the one that has うう. What is the word, for example?

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Per my original post:

"When I write うう, I'm including the cases when the first vowel is part of another syllable, as in しゅう, for example. The same goes for the other vowel combinations."

There's no re-articulation, if that's what you mean. It's a smooth "û".

Glenn said:

There's no re-articulation, if that's what you mean. It's a smooth "û".

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And the quality of that sound is just the same as that of as a single う? In other words, only the length is different?

Yes, as far as I can tell. I don't see why it would be different.

Glenn said:

Yes, as far as I can tell. I don't see why it would be different.

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Right, thanks. I think it must be just my ears!

I think, actually, I've somehow got it into my head that う should be as in "book", and うう should be as in "tool".

Oh, no. う isn't like "book", at least not in my dialect. That's [ɨ] (close central unrounded vowel) for me. う is [ɯ] (close back unrounded vowel). That one's closer to "tool", but not as rounded.